#217: Daniel Staackmann - Seitan to the Rescue
In 2006, young entrepreneur, Daniel Staackmann, took out a home equity line of credit and started Upton’s Naturals in his hometown of Chicago.
He placed his money on seitan and in his 17 years of business, that gamble has clearly paid off. Upton’s Naturals is the #1 selling brand of seitan in the United States and their products are sold in thousands of stores throughout the United States and beyond.
Dan, a 30-year ethical vegan, prides himself on being the sole proprietor of his company and his slow growth model has allowed him to avoid so many of the landmines and pitfalls of the food industry as a whole.
Today, he and Rip share the many intricacies of running a food line from labeling, brand name, sourcing ingredients, getting placement on shelves, growth strategies, and so much more.
It’s an insightful peek behind the curtain on the food industry and the amount of work and passion it takes to bring delicious food from concept to shelves everywhere!
Rip and Dan discuss:
The humble (and personal) beginnings of Upton’s Naturals in 2006 and Dan’s “Do It Yourself” approach to entrepreneurship
How he came up with the unique company name
Why he chose seitan as his main product?
His biggest wins as a young entrepreneur
How his “slow growth” model has benefitted his business and his personality
The nutritional value of meat alternatives and why Upton’s branched out into soups, jackfruit, and fava as brand extensions
How remaining sole proprietor has allowed him to maintain control and avoid the "minefields" of the food industry.
His vision for the future of Uptons and other expansions
About Dan Staackmann
Dan Staackmann is the founder and president of Upton’s Naturals, an independently-owned, ethical vegan food company based in Chicago, IL. A 30-year vegan and long-time advocate for animal rights and environmental sustainability, Dan founded Upton’s Naturals in 2006 with a DIY attitude and slow-growth business model. Beginning in a shared kitchen, he created and introduced the first integrally-flavored packaged seitan. The seitan launched in a limited number of natural food stores in the Midwest and reached national distribution by 2011. Currently the #1 selling seitan brand in the country, Upton's Naturals products are sold in thousands of stores nationwide, as well as in international marketplaces.
Episode Resources
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Full Episode Transcript via AI Transcription Service
00:01
I’m Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the plantstrong podcast. The mission at plantstrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant- based living, and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your plantstrong journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show
As someone who has a food line with my photo on the packaging, I know how difficult that is to get it right at every level from flavor profiles, ingredients taste all the way to packaging, labeling, marketing, distribution, warehousing supply chain. It is endless. So I want to learn from some of the best who have done it successfully over the years, which is why I turned to Daniel Staackmann. Daniel is the founder and president of Upton's Naturals, an independently owned, ethical vegan food company, based out of Chicago, Illinois. Daniel is a 30-year vegan and longtime advocate for animal rights and environmental sustainability. And he founded Upton's Naturals in 2006 with a do it yourself attitude, and a slow growth business model. Today is products including his wildly popular seitan products are sold in 1000s of stores nationwide, as well as in international marketplaces. We talk about his personal journey into veganism, as well as his own entrepreneurial journey of selling plant based products, especially at a time when it wasn't the norm back in 2006. Please welcome to the show. Daniel Stackmann, Upton's Naturals. Where am I talking to you from? Are you Where are you in Chicago?
02:20
Yep, I'm at home in Chicago.
02:22
Right. And are you like born and bred in Chicago?
02:25
Pretty much. Yeah. I've lived here my whole life. So
02:30
do you love love the Windy City?
02:33
I I love it. But I'm not one of those like, you know, City Pride kind of guys like trash talking. You know, every other city like Chicago is the best, you know, whatever it is. I'm happy. A lot of places. I'll say that.
02:51
Yeah. Well, you and I met for the first time. I think it was back in March at the Expo West. Yeah. Which is obviously for people that don't know, Expo West. It's a natural Expo that has all the basically food lines, natural food lines. Kind of in the country and all over the world. It's one of the biggest that I've ever been to. I mean, how many how many different food companies would you say booths and are hocking their stuff?
03:23
I can't remember the number of exhibitors. It's definitely. It's definitely in the 1000s for sure. I know that the attendees I think the highest maybe it was pre pandemic was was like 100,000. Yeah. So it's it's big. It's it's definitely one of the largest shows of any kind in the in the US.
03:46
Yeah, I know that after I get done with three days at Expo West. I'm dizzy and kind of out of sorts for a good week. Are you?
03:55
Yeah, it's I mean, I guess I'm used to it by now. But it can be very intense.
04:00
Uh huh. Well, so just for people that that don't know. Daniel, you're the you're the founder and CEO of Upton's Naturals, you've got a whole bunch of different products. Your first product was seitan, correct? Yes. And it is that now do you pronounce it seitan or sei-tawn?
04:23
I'll go either way. I mean, largely, I say seitain, but sometimes a little I let a little seitan slip.
04:33
Exactly. And you you really are one of the iconic plants alternative. I'm sorry, I should say meat alternative brands in the in the marketplace. And you were really one of the first. So I mean, kudos to you. You know, Daniel for your, for your vision, your foresight, and your passion in this in this space. So let's go back you kind of like you're growing up in Chicago. Go, you got brothers and sisters?
05:02
I am an only child.
05:04
Okay. All right, only child. And when in the world did you decide that you are going to stay away from meat and dairy products and all that comes along with with with those foods?
05:21
Yeah, I was I was 15. And I only had one friend that was like just vegetarian and he had kind of planted that seed in my head. And you know, I thought about it on and off for, I don't know, probably a number of weeks. And I was at I was out to dinner with my family and I had a, you know, in a French dip sandwiches. Something about it. I took a couple of bites. And I was like, That's it. I'm, I'm just done with us. And I put it down and and never, never looked back.
05:59
So you were 5015? Yeah. And how, if you don't mind me asking How old are you now?
06:05
I'm 46 Wow.
06:08
So you are still a young pup? You truly are. So it's been it's been close to about 3030 31 years, roughly. Right? Wow. And you remember just helped me with the math. So what year was that? When you were 1522?
06:27
I think we're in Yeah. 2020?
06:32
Yep. And are you? Do you refer to yourself as plant based? Oh, no, vegan.
06:40
Okay, I've, I've, I've acknowledged plant based, I can accept that we put it on the packaging. But I'm a vegan. We're a vegan company, so
06:52
and so explain that to me. I mean, because you you respond very quickly non vegan. Like what's behind that?
07:01
Really, it's more of an ethical stance. You know, I started this mostly for animal rights. Like I I'm all for the health benefits. And of course, the environmental benefits behind, you know, veganism or a plant based diet, but I just had maybe a different motivation than other others that are starting today. I mean, not that you can't be into animal rights today and decided to go plant based but you know, plant based is just like a, it's a softer term, you know, there was maybe a lot of negative associations with the word vegan, and especially with food 30 years ago, because it's come a long way for sure, you know, so I think it's more of a consumer facing thing. You know, like, the studies have shown that people respond better to plant based. So if that's what it takes, then fantastic.
08:08
And so this friend of yours back when you were 15, that suggested or planted the seed, as you said, Yes. Did you plant the seed for health reasons? Or was it because reasons
08:21
strictly ethical. And I haven't kept in touch with him, but I guess I would, I would be surprised if if he was still vegan or vegetarian, but
08:31
Well, that'd be I mean, yeah, you mean, that'd be pretty cool. Because look how far you've come. So speaking of speaking of which, so you started your company Upton's in 2006. Yeah. A little little bit before.
08:51
I mean, I think we got the incorporation papers and all that and sign stuff and 2006. But yeah, yeah.
09:02
And did you have anybody else that you were doing this where there were you just kind of like the Lone Ranger here.
09:08
I had a friend. It's kind of kind of not a terribly long story, but essentially, you know, we had been discussing like, oh, we were going to try to buy a conventional bakery that was was looking to sell and we're going to turn it into a vegan bakery. Well, you know, that conversation lagged on a few weeks and by the time we went to the bakery, it was sold and mentally I had already committed to doing something you know, that that might allow for some activism and obviously foods, a great way to do that. So I kind of looked around and St. Han was a was always a favorite food of mine. And there was just one national brand and really just a couple of restaurants making a local Really, so I came up with that idea. And then we got into a shared space and just kind of figured it out.
10:10
Figured it out. What was it about, seitan that you were enamored with
10:17
just the the texture, you know, it's very meaty obviously. I've also really always admired the, the small ingredient list, which is huge for me. If you if you notice all of the Upton's products always have really recognizable ingredients. extremely clean and simple. We don't use any, you know, natural flavors or any of that kind of stuff, yeast extracts. But yeah, it just, it was, it was a favorite, and I had only made it one other time. And that went terribly wrong. I actually made it for my girlfriend at the Times family for Thanksgiving. And it was Oh, yeah. And I was like, you know, I stayed up all night. I was like, 1130, or whatever. And I started making this the SE tan for the first time. And it was so spongy. And, you know, I brought it the next day, and everybody was really nice about it. But yeah, it wasn't until several years later when I just thought, you know, I'm gonna give this a try again. And then it was a lot of trial and error.
11:41
Right. So seitan is how you started Upton's. And I know I know you've been asked this question a bunch. But why in the world? Is it called Upton's? Where'd that come from?
11:55
Well, I knew that people like a name and a face right on products. I didn't want either to be mine. And, you know, there's just there's really nothing special about Dan's seitan, at least to me, it's just didn't didn't work. So another friend had suggested you know, like what about Upton's there's there's a book, very famous book written about the meat industry here in Chicago by a gentleman named Upton Sinclair. Yeah. We don't advertise that, you know, we don't really, we don't generally talk about that association. But largely, I just thought that it was a unique enough name. It kind of went with the overall aesthetic that we were trying to go for with this character. And he's been a great salesperson much better than I you know, could ever hope to be so.
12:58
So let me ask you that so the dude that's on the front of all your packaging? That very, very handsome lad. Yeah, that wears the bow tie. And he looks like he's from the 1920s or 30s is that Upton Sinclair?
13:16
It is not. Yeah, we also made sure that it looked nothing like the act you know, the the the author opt in. It's just Yeah,
13:29
just a dude.
13:30
Just a guy totally fictional. Created by our friend Johnny Sampson, who's a an illustrator. And yeah, just just a guy.
13:43
Well, so did it. As soon as you saw it, were you like, that's it?
13:47
Yeah. I like that. That's the guy.
13:50
Yeah. Yeah. And then and then depending upon the, the product, he either has a mustache or doesn't or has a crazy yeah, you know, handlebar mustache or whatever.
14:03
Well, we tried to have fun with it. So where, you know, whenever we launched a new item, we would have you know, a new facial hair to kind of go with it. And we only somewhat recently started kind of recycling those and pairing them like if there was like, we have a cheesy bacon mac and that has the bacon Upton on it with like the little pencil mustache.
14:30
So my understanding from all of my research, Daniel, is that you you are currently the number one selling say tam brand in the natural and the moolah channels, you know that your understanding is I mean that that is that's quite an accomplishment. And you know, for somebody like myself, who's also been in the food space since about 2010 You know, 2010 to 2020. It was with whole foods. woods, where they help help me launch the engine to brand. And then since then going off on my own with the plant strong brand, I can tell you that, you know, what you've done is, is really almost nothing short of remarkable. And looking back, you know, since 2006, when you started this, do you ever go? Holy crap? I mean, this is phenomenal. Or are you like, Yeah, this is where I am. And I know, I knew I'd get here. And I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
15:34
You know, I generally don't take a lot of time to stop and pat myself on the back. And, you know, it. Time is funny, right? Like, so it's like those early little wins that you're like, Wow, this is really exciting. And then all of a sudden, it's 17 years later, and, you know, things just kind of happen. But
15:59
well, it is, it is funny how the winds start to stack up, and then you've got something, you know, substantial. Can you remember? What was the first win that you had, where you just were, like, pumping your fist and super excited,
16:16
probably getting into those first whole food stores. Because that's, you know, we started in a shared space and launched, we, you know, we pitched to a handful of restaurants in Chicago, just to make sure that people actually liked the product. And saved up, you know, enough to get into our own space and get retail packaging, and then went to Whole Foods and launched in I think, seven stores with them to start. And that was that was really exciting to finally see the product on the shelf and, and to go and do demos. In store, I think I still hold the record for how many cases you know, any person any demo had ever sold. You know, in a three hour period. That that was really exciting. And then the rest kinda it's, you know, it's a big blur.
17:22
Yeah, yeah. And those are those first seven Whole Food Market stores you got into was that in the Chicago area?
17:30
Yep. Yeah, we started, I was delivering everything myself, just in a van and coolers. And then we expanded to 20 stores with them. And I think that went through a third party distributor. And then when we got to the full 40, in the region at the time, we went through their DC, and then just continued to expand with them as like, there was there was someone from the Midwest that had moved to the southwest region that contacted us and was like, hey, you know, I want to, I want to bring you down here. And, you know, we just had a really slow growth model where we kind of grew region, by region with whole foods and and when we would launch a new one, we would get in the car and drive to that region and visit every store and pass out buttons and do demos and meet everybody. And yeah, and then just hope that, like, other independent stores would would pick things up. We didn't work with any brokers in the beginning, we didn't have any other sales team or anything. It was just all kind of word of mouth and doing veg fests and demos.
18:49
And seriously boots on the ground. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's, that's the way to get after it.
18:55
I mean, when when you don't have any money to do it the other way and no one's interested. That's what you have to do.
19:04
So So you were completely self funded? Correct?
19:09
Yeah. I, I actually took out a home equity line of credit in in 2005. In order to do this, if you recall, that was like the height of all of those No, Doc, you know, loans that, that people were taking with crazy balloon payments and all that stuff. And I remember, the underwriter was like so you know, is it possible that you could make $100,000 this year? And I laughed out loud. I was like, No, there's absolutely no way that I could make that much money. And she was like, let me ask you again. Is it
19:51
possible that you
19:55
like yeah, it's it's definitely possible. So So I took, I only tapped like 40,000 of that and rolled it into the, you know, like bare essentials that I needed to get the facility open. And just I've always continued to roll, you know, any profit that we've made back into the business in one form or another. So
20:23
do you remember how long it took before you actually were able to make 100,000?
20:29
It was at least. I mean, I still haven't taken that for myself. But what do I need money for? You know, what's, what am I going to? But I think, you know, because our model was so slow, it was probably two three years before we broke that, because like, the first year was really just foodservice and like those five to seven restaurants, and then with the whole foods, so you know that that was all pretty slow. Probably two, three years to break that and sales. And then you know, I always had like, a side hustle. The first several years I bought and sold, design, you can see like, in the background, I've, you know, that kind of thing. So I was I was always hustling and, and figuring out how to pay the bills and just, you know, paying everybody else first until the point, you know, where I'm like, okay, I can pay myself minimum wage now. And now I can get up to 30,000 or whatever, you know, whatever. The numbers have been over the years. But yeah, yeah.
21:46
How many people are now employed by Upton's Naturals?
21:52
We are somewhere around 50. You know, some of that goes through different channels. Like we've got a separate restaurant and, you know, manufacturing division, so.
22:10
So have you always manufactured your own products? Or do you?
22:15
Yes, well, I'm on the safe hand side. Yes. There really, especially when we started there, there wasn't anybody that you couldn't go to a co packer and be like, I'd like you to make a tan because nobody knew what that was. And it's it's a fairly unique process. But when we expanded in 2015, we were actually the first in the world to launch a preseason, packaged jackfruit. And that we had to, you know, work with partners on
22:52
and that's in a retort container and is, to the best of my knowledge before you it was only available in cans.
22:59
Correct? Yeah. So I mean, that was I worked on that for several years, in trying to find anybody, like, figure out how to do it. Because I would buy the ken myself, and you know, you get it home and you're like, Alright, why am I dumping out all of this water from Asia down the drain, and we're, you know, we're shipping all of that extra weight, that obviously consumes fuel. And then I have to sit there and wait, you know, a couple hours to slow cook this barbecue, I just kind of want to tear it open and be ready to go. So I called basically every brand, you know, throughout Asia with a can. And I would say like, you know, I'm really interested in buying a lot of jackfruit from you, but I don't want it in the can like, is there anything else that we can do here to you know, like in bulk or, and, and they all laughed at me. They were like, Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. Americans don't want jackfruit like, That's ridiculous. And I was like, I will tell me what it costs to invest in whatever it takes. And they all just, you know, blew me off. So ultimately, it took getting on a plane without a return ticket. And I just went to a number of different co packing facilities that had the potential to do it. And figured it out.
24:32
That to me is such a absolutely brilliant idea. Can you tell me based upon like sales, how does the jackfruit doing compared to the SE tan?
24:44
Well, the when we first launched the jackfruit was everybody was really excited about it right? Because it was the first of its kind. I think, for some people it's It's been a struggle to figure out what else to do with it. We know that people want to make barbecue sandwiches and tacos. And maybe you're having that, I don't know, a couple nights a month sort of thing. So we're at the point where it, it shot up like crazy, and we got tons of press. And then, you know, it kind of plateaued. And now we're on a slow build. So seitan, I think is more of your something for, you know, for almost like a daily meal or a few times a week, it's a little more versatile. Yeah. And it certainly has more protein than jackfruit, which is largely just about the fiber and the texture.
25:50
Well, and as we all know, Americans are eaten up with anything that has gobs of protein in it. Yeah. And seitan is like the mother ticket.
25:59
Yes. Yeah, we have so many like bodybuilders that buy it by the case. And, yeah. Are you sure you want to eat that much seitan? And?
26:10
I mean, it's, I mean, it's about 80% protein, if I'm not mistaken.
26:15
Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a macros guy. But I know it's, I know, it's, it's big.
26:22
Well, for our listeners that are interested, I can tell you that. If you take any one of Daniels, you know, say 10 products, whether it's their traditional the Teresa, the bacon, the Italian the ground, one little two ounce serving gives you 18 grams of protein. That's, that's pretty phenomenal. If that's what you're after.
26:48
Yeah, yeah. Proteins important, but you know, yeah, yeah. So spider. Fiber you need you need fiber?
26:57
Yes, you do. Tell me? Because I actually don't remember seeing it. Is there fiber in seitan? Very little. Okay. Because it's a little. It's kind of YouTube's from the wheat. Right. And so it's a little bit processed?
27:12
Yeah. Yeah. It's about as processed as a loaf of bread. Right. You
27:16
also have some father. You've got right, you have a father product? Yes. And is that because the silence of the lamps?
27:25
If it is not, it was, it is my opinion that one of the future paths of the category is in different proteins, since everything is so dominated by soy and wheat. And now pee. You know, it just seemed interesting to me to try to work with something that was fava, just, you know, just to diversify those proteins a little bit.
27:54
Yeah. You've also got a hot dog. He is called the up dog. It is.
28:01
I was on the fence whether to go there with that. But it was it was unanimous. And
28:08
is that made? Is that made out of seitan? It is?
28:11
Yeah. Right. Also very high. Protein.
28:15
Yeah. Got it. The jury so what is the the chili that gives that? It's kick.
28:23
It's a walkie to pepper. Hmm.
28:27
And I don't have never even heard of that. Is that kind of like a between a habanero and a jalapeno?
28:33
Hmm. I forget where it is on the Scoville scale or whatever. But it you know, it's not too spicy. It's just like it's a dried pepper. And we've worked with the same supplier on that. Since we started, you know, there's there's a Mexican spice purveyor in town that that has a very unique blend.
29:06
Yep. In in your bacon, you have your bacon. Seitan. You've got a hickory smoke that's in there. That really kind of makes it home run. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Nice. So, if I go to your website right now, do you know roughly how many different offerings or skews you have to be like 18,22
29:31
The total count I can't remember but we've got there's four states hands plus the Up Dog. There's six soups to max. And then there are four Jack jackfruits in one banana blossom.
29:53
So what about the vegan holiday roast and gravy is that season?
29:57
You got me Ah, yes, the holiday roast is something that we did as a limited time offer. Just last year, I'm not sure yet, if it's gonna be back on shelf this year, we're just sort of experimenting with it, we had a retailer come to us looking for some additional options. And we're like, Well, you know, the roast market is pretty well saturated, right? Like everybody's got a roast. Even in our home, we almost always have a classic tofurkey every year. Yeah. But, you know, the one thing that was missing is, if you're a single person, or a couple going to a family, Thanksgiving, and you know, you want to you can have all the sides, but there's no protein for you. You know, you're fighting for oven space, or you basically need to make, you know, you need to bake off that roast for whatever, an hour or two, sometimes two hours, however long those things take to produce. And then you're probably not going to eat the whole thing. So our solution was to just have something that's, you know, one generous serving, or two reasonable servings, with some gravy in there. That's just like, basically ready to go. And a couple minutes, you can put it in the microwave, or, you know, in a skillet or in the oven. And
31:32
yeah, so How extensive is your r&d team? I mean, is that something that you're, you're,
31:39
it's just, it's, it's pretty much just me, and then you know, it depends certain projects. I pull in different people from production, or even our marketing manager. We actually with a great story with the soups, we actually had a food scientist at the time on staff. When we got a call from a major natural foods retailer, and they said, you know, we're, we're thinking about expanding the soup offerings, you know, because there's really just one brand that has a lot of the shelf space, and we'd like to see some other plant based items. And would you be interested in taking a shot at it? You know, the turnaround was pretty tight. It was like, you know, you had to have samples within like, a month or two could have been less. I was like, Well, I can, I can ask this food scientist to take a crack at it, but I know it's gonna take them, you know, several months. So our, our marketing manager, and I, you know, kind of made a list of some of our favorite, like, homemade soups, and she took the first crack at it. I think we we narrowed it down to eight, and got together a week later and, you know, talked about all the feedback we had and refine them another one or two times, sent them off to this retailer, just in ball jars. And three of them were approved, and then we figured out, okay, how are we going to scale this up in time? I think at that point, you had like six or eight months, until it was on shelf? Easy, but that's what you have to do. You know, like it, I could spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year with a bunch of r&d people that you know that maybe they're going to get something right, maybe they're not maybe the maybe a retailer will actually approve it, or maybe they won't. So I've always tried to go with direct retailer feedback when it comes to launching products and my own interests. You know, if I feel good about it, or I think it's a good idea, I'll take a stab at it. But yeah,
34:04
well those those so what year was that? That you launched Soups
34:08
Soups was 21 Because I think the conversation started in 2020 and then with the pandemic there was problems at the at the soup co Packer just with backup because everybody was buying soup, so but we can't fit you in?
34:30
Yeah, well just in for everybody that's listening. The six soups that you have on your website is you got to chicken noodle soup is that chick is that basically from from the st tan, okay, takes a tan. You got to check tortilla soup. Sounds delicious. A minestrone and Italian wedding soup. What the when the world was an Italian wedding.
34:53
It's you know it's got our Italian seitan in there. And I mean, I, to be honest, I've never had, you know, a conventional Italian wedding soup. But Natalie, our marketing manager, it was something that that she had enjoyed. And we knew it was a popular soup in the conventional side of things, and it's basically like a spinach with a little bit of pasta and Italian sausage, and
35:28
you know, yeah. And then the other two you got you got a crimson
35:32
lentil soup. Crimson lentil. Yep. Yeah.
35:36
It does really well on Harvard. And then you have a chicken wild rice soup? Yes. Yeah. Well, I know. You know, we've we've, we've got 10 chilies and stews that are now at Whole Foods globally. And so I know how challenging it can be to kind of get those just where you want them. And so congrats on having six. That's huge. How did you guys fare during, during the pandemic? Was that a good time for you? Or a hard time for you?
36:11
I hope that no one would say that it was a good time. But I think we, you know, we did okay. We certainly benefited from people cooking at home a little bit more. And we were lucky, you know, at the factory where we didn't have a lot of cases of, of, you know, people getting extremely sick or anything. And it it was okay, it was as good as it could be.
36:46
Yeah. So, you know, in hearing you talk, I'm really impressed with your you know, do it yourself attitude, your slow growth, kind of business mind, which seems to run counter to so many others that are just trying to, you know, go as fast as, as possible. Doing all these, you know, raises and getting, you know, private equity, money and basically losing control. And it seems like the one of the things that you've been really good at is, you know, you've self funded, you've maintained control, you are a sole proprietor. What advice would you give to somebody that's on the sidelines, they're thinking about going into food? Would you say go for it? Or do you say, stay away, it's just a, a, it's an arena that's littered with minefields, everywhere you go.
37:42
There are a lot of minefields for sure. For sure, and I mean, it might, it might call for a separate podcast, okay, for me to just list all of my problems with the, you know, the food chain, because there are some very dark parts of it. But, you know, it really just depends on your own personality and what you have the appetite for, and what your goals are in life. I mean, I didn't start this business to like, become a billionaire. I was just a vegan, that you know, wanting to do something for myself. The slow growth model isn't for everybody, but it's, it's definitely much more sustainable. I've had a number of friends that took on that investor money and you know, didn't realize that even if they weren't giving up the majority of their business now they're answering to these people that don't really care if you live or die. Like they just you know, they're only in it to make money and when your only motivation in life is financial, it's it's usually not very pretty. So I've had people that have lost their businesses because you know, they didn't they didn't meet the projections that you know, the investors wanted and they just stopped returning phone calls and then what are you left with? You know, something that you can't rebuild when the money stops? That's it.
39:14
Speaking of Do you have an end goal with with Upton's Are you kind of just taking it one year at a time?
39:20
I think it's one year at a time. I mean, again, I never plan to be where I was necessarily. So you know, there, there are definitely highs and lows with the business at the size that it is now. You know, we in some ways benefited from all of that big money coming into the space. You know, there's a lot of attention you know, around a very small number of products that people were going in the stores to buy and then a handful of those people converted if you will, or you know, decided to expand there. So, They're their meal planning a little bit. And luckily tried some seitan and enjoyed it and continued to buy. But with that came a tremendous amount of pressure from from retailers saying like, you know, what do you have that's new, if you don't have innovation, I don't care what this is doing. I've got to make, I've got somebody that's going to give me $10 million for this ad program. And, you know, you're not going to have your space unless you give me something new or, you know, what can you do for me, basically? And,
40:34
yeah, in addition to the, you know, 40% markup that I'm taking,
40:38
yeah, well, I mean, that's only part of it, when you start talking about certain distributors that are really only they're really only in business, because of the ways that they figure out how to charge back suppliers. You know, they it's not this, it's not this old fashioned idea of I'm going to buy this widget for $1 and sell it for $2. And then that person is going to sell it for three, it's, yeah, I'm gonna buy this. I'm gonna only say I'm gonna mark it up this little bit, but then I'm going to figure out a way to scam you out of like, a ton of a ton of money until you're back in the corner.
41:24
Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Your your parents still alive, Daniel.
41:30
They are.
41:31
Wow. What did they think about what you've done with Upton Upton's?
41:36
I suspect they're, they're proud, you know,
41:40
well, are they? Are they entrepreneurial? Is that where you got your entrepreneurial ism?
41:45
They are not. I mean, my father, to some extent, he had a small automotive shop for, you know, a handful of years. And, you know, I think for me, a lot of that came from being an only child having to figure out a lot of things on my own. And then, you know, I also kind of came from, you know, like, the, the punk and hardcore scene where everything was DIY, you know, all of the shows were, you know, booked in people's basements or whatever. And you just, you know, if you want something, you're the one that needs to figure it out, because no one's going to show up and hand you, you know, whatever it is, well, with the exception of all of those private equity guys in the last five or seven years, or whatever it's been.
42:37
So back in the day, were you were you in the punk rock scene? Yeah. You were great. Do you? So were you a fan of Moby at all?
42:47
Um, I wouldn't say that I'm a I wouldn't say I'm a fan. You know, I'm kind of neutral on Moby and I don't have any Moby records, but I appreciate what he's done. For veganism and what he's, you know what he's promoted.
43:03
Yeah. veganism and animal rights. I had him. I just interviewed him on the podcast last week. Super, super, super impressive individual. Where are you straight edge?
43:17
I am. Yeah. All right. Way to be.
43:23
So let's, I got a I got a couple more questions. I'd love to ask. Yeah. So you got all these different products, you got the you know, you got the hot dogs, you got to say 10 You got soups. You got the Deluxe, you know, Mac and cheeses. Tell me about the banana blossom and where that came from. And that's it tastes like banana.
43:50
It tastes nothing like banana. It's got a very neutral flavor. It's largely used as a fried fish alternative. You know, it's similar to jackfruit and that it's basically just fiber but the way that the the blossom has like those layers in there, you know, it's somewhat resembles fish.
44:16
Do you know anybody else that uses the banana blossom?
44:20
Like at restaurants or just in the food space
44:23
that sells it like you do?
44:25
I think that there are a couple of, of brands that have it canned. I'm not sure if they're in the natural channel or not. But it was another one of those things where in speaking with a couple of retailers, you know, they had asked if, if that was something that we might be able to offer that would be clean label, you know, without any preservatives and, you know, not in the can because it doesn't need to be in the can and it sort of fit in with with the jackfruit. So
44:58
and tell people Where, what part? Where does the banana blossom come from?
45:05
It's, it's, it grows on the end of a bunch of bananas, and then just falls off.
45:12
Okay, and is it? Is it? I mean, is it like the mother seed for the bananas? Or I'm a little confused? No, I roll. Is it a flower?
45:23
It is. Yeah, so I'm and I should say I'm not a I'm not a botanist over here. So I can only speak to this thing so much. But yeah, it's it's strictly a waste product, you know, it would just be sent to the landfill or the compost heap. But it has that, you know, kind of fun, Layered Texture That is delicious when you batter and fry it with like, a little bit of seaweed or, you know, garlic and onion. And, you know, again, it's it's a whole foods. So that's, yeah, that's great.
46:01
So you've got a restaurant? Yes. And why did you decide in addition to taking on, you know, everything you have, you know, optins? Natural, did you decide to start a restaurant? And when did you decide to do that?
46:16
It? Well, it was, it was a terrible idea. Now, we, the building that I'm in today, originally house, it's been 10 years. And we were planning for it two years prior to that. So we started out in like, 1000 square feet. And, you know, we knew we had to expand, and I wanted to do something, you know, in a in a neighborhood that I wanted to be in personally. And I wanted to find a building that would allow for not only our our main business and manufacturing to operate with trucks coming and going, but to have a little retail outlet, just so we could use that as like, almost like an r&d kitchen, you know, like, different items every week and and see you get people's feedback and be able to interact with the neighborhood. So that was the original plan with the restaurant, and then also to feed the staff. Because we had, you know, at that time, I think we only had like 15 or 20 people on the team. And, you know, there wasn't a lot to eat in the neighborhood. And when I started it, it was countless days of well, I forgot to bring lunch again. And there's, you know, I can only go have a salad down the street so many times. So I guess I'm just going to stand here and eat, you know, some, some plain seitan. So I wanted to have this, this kitchen that could feed everybody. And that's that's what happened with the restaurant. And so
48:03
it's still it's still there's still they're still still going strong.
48:07
Yeah, we, we didn't realize exactly how much we would grow or how quickly we would grow the building is right around 9000 square feet. So it was a huge leap. You know, we were thinking, Oh, it's gonna be like, at least 10 years before we need to expand. And, you know, we're right in an area where we could previously had gotten, you know, an off site location that was, you know, enough room and the neighborhoods changed a lot and different businesses have come in to where, you know, we're definitely we would be priced out of the size building that we would need to operate in today. But yeah, within the first two years, it started to get tight. And then we had to move manufacturing out. About five, almost six years ago. Yeah. So we went from the 9000, or whatever it was to 42,000. Sick. Yeah, you know, it was a very challenging time in my life, just in managing not only the move of the operations, but you know, adding the number of people. I mean, there was there was a point where we went from like 20 employees 260, almost overnight, and we're working three shifts, and it was just completely insane. It was very, very difficult. And then I actually live in the building, right? So it was hard to be like, well, we're just going to close down the restaurant and and move and so that's part of why the restaurant is still going I mean it is It holds its own, but it definitely has its challenges.
50:03
Yeah. How many meals a week? Would you say you eat at the restaurant? Um, because it's right out your door, right?
50:12
Yeah. Maybe I might be down to two or three because I'll be traveling back and forth from the factory and you know, we have some we have some good things that are suitable for a daily meal. Because a lot of it is comfort food where, you know, we've got like an Italian beef sandwich, which is very, like it's just like all seitan and a bunch of Jarden air and you don't want to have one of those every single day. So we have a bowl that has like tofu and brown rice and kale and carrots, and yeah.
50:52
Well, if you don't want the, would you call that the Italian sub?
50:56
Well, it's like an Italian beef. If you've if you've seen that show, the bear. I haven't. It's a popular show right now second season. It's based on this Chicago delicacy known as the Italian beef, which is similar to a French dip. It's basically just beef and peppers on a on a roll and you can dip it in this like in the gravy basically.
51:25
Okay, so if you're dipping into Upton's break room, that's the name of the restaurant, two to three times a week, how many times you dipping into the liberation doughnuts a week? You started a doughnut? A donut place? Is it part of Yeah.
51:45
During the pandemic, actually, after we moved the manufacturing out, were like, Okay, well, what are we going to do with this space? Because we had, you know, on the main floor alone, we had at least an extra 1500 square feet that was just for manufacturing previously. And, you know, we were thinking, Oh, maybe we could do a food hall or, you know, try to do, you know, run a different operation out of here. And then the pandemic hits, so that, you know, we weren't opening a food hall for people to come eat at. But there, there wasn't a vegan donut shop in town. And I had been playing with the idea for a long time, like, you know, who doesn't love doughnuts? So we decided to launch just like a separate concept within the break room. Which was really helpful because if we just said, Oh, now the break room has doughnuts, probably nobody cares. But if you read Oh, there's a new vegan donut shop. Yeah. That that helped get people in the door. But last year, we did combine the two so there is no more opt ins break room. It's just liberation kitchen. Ah, ha, ha which is a little bit easier. And we've done some other fun things with the rest of the space. Right now. We have our friends at Logan arcade doing a pop up. So we've got the world's largest pinball game. And a bunch of rare early video games that are available Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And to answer your question, I try to only have maybe one donut every week or every couple weeks, because it's tough. You know, you're you're staring at those doughnuts every day. And in the beginning, especially when they're new. You're like, Oh, I I could make I'll just have one today.
53:48
And then what's your favorite donut? You got a favorite?
53:51
I do. It's the Lydia is a Claire. So it's a it's a plain donut that has vanilla pastry cream in the center. So it's it's cut in half. And then it has the pastry cream and the top is dipped in chocolate. So it's got like a little bit of a crispy chocolate shell. And
54:12
right the next time I'm in Chicago, I'm gonna get a Lydia's
54:16
cat. For Greta, I think is the favorite that's named after our late dog Greta because she loved whipped cream. That's sort of like a strawberry shortcake donut. So it's got, you know, again, a plain doughnut with whip and then fresh strawberries.
54:34
Actually, I'm going to change it. I'm gonna go with that one. Yeah, that one's really good too. But yeah, whenever it's my birthday, we have a place here in Austin, Texas called Mr. Naturals. Oh yeah, I've been there. I love that. Mr. Natural and they make they have the most amazing bakery goods. And they make birthday cakes. And I always get the kind of the strawberry shortcake birthday cake. Birthday. It's my One time I really indulge in, in a vegan cake, and I can't get enough of
55:05
it just for when is your birthday?
55:09
It's in February. Oh, me too. Yeah. Nice night. What?
55:14
What day in February?
55:16
We happened to be the 16th. Oh, I'm
55:18
the 18th. There you go. We're
55:20
Aquarians aren't ya? Nice? Yeah. I also saw on the website that the soft serve ice cream machine has been fixed.
55:29
Yes. Thankfully, it was just some kind of power contactor, and it was a routine thing. The guy came in that Monday and was just, you know, five minute fix.
55:43
Right? Tell me, Daniel, are your mom and dad vegan?
55:49
They're not as hard as I may have tried, you know, over the years. They're just to set in their ways. Which,
56:01
yeah, well, do you ever take time to vacation and, you know, enjoy yourself?
56:11
Not as much as I should? For many years. I would. And I give this advice to everybody that that travels for business. When when you do that, you have to take at least some time to see what's going on in every city. So, you know, I've traveled we had business in Europe for a long time. So I would try to take an extra couple days here and there. If I go to Sri Lanka or Thailand to visit factories, you take, you know, if you're traveling that far, you try to take a week. Yeah. But but always make time for that, you know, when you're out there doing business, because it's hard. You know, if I'm sitting here, we're talking about trying to take a vacation last night, and I was like, Oh, I can't even think about it. Because I, you know, I've just got to wait until this one thing is finished, or, you know, until I know what's going to happen with that product or whatever it is. But if you said, Hey, we need to go to Morocco tomorrow, because there's a distributor that's really interested in bringing in container foals. I'm ready, you know, let's go
57:31
to the best of your understanding how many different stores? Are you in across the United States? 5000 10,000?
57:39
It's probably somewhere between seven and 10,000. Yeah, we don't. The other thing we don't do is pay a lot of money for data or third party services like that. So you know that, especially as a startup, you know, when you have, if you've got someone else's money, and they're like, here's $100,000 to pay for that data. It's a lot easier to spend it, but
58:09
I know that data, it's crazy, how much how much they're wanting for data. And then the other thing that really kills me is all the free fill on the slotting fees, you know, especially your your first year when you know, you're just little, little teeny, weeny startup.
58:24
Yeah, it's it's rough. I mean, that's another reason why we took that sort of slow growth model where it's like, you know, we can afford a free Phil, we've only actually paid slotting fees a handful of times over the years, in largely, we waited for those kinds of conventional retailers to come to us. Yeah. And, you know, thankfully, a lot of them have have scaled back on slotting fees. And just on the one case, free refill, but it can be tricky. I mean, there are natural stores that have a two case, slotting fee. And, you know, they'll if you don't perform in the first three months, if even if you're not in the season of the item that you're launching, you're out because they've got somebody else, they just got 25 grand from for a speed to shell for whatever it is. And so it can be it can be very dangerous.
59:22
Are you are you are you finding yourself doing much in the way of promos during the year?
59:27
Yeah, I mean, that's our that's one of our main way ways to market the brand outside of social media. We've scaled back on a lot of in person consumer events. I mean, now, maybe next year, we'll start to revisit those a little bit more. But certainly through the pandemic, the best way to gain trial was through like a quarterly promotion, because people see the tag and they're like, Oh, it's $1 off. Maybe I'll try that or,
59:58
yeah, it's a great way to get trial for sure. Are you are you doing? Are you typically doing both the Expos Expo West and Expo East?
1:00:07
We've reduced it to Expo West. Again, I think largely because of the pandemic. It kind of seems like those shows aren't as important as they used to, as they used to be. And even meetings in person, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've I've literally taken three days because of a retailer meeting request in a far flung part of the country with you know, only a couple of flights in and out but they gotta meet with you in person for 15 minutes. And you're gone for three days. Yeah. So for that I am thankful
1:00:49
Yeah, for sure. Daniel, this has been great. This has been really wonderful I really glad that I ran into you at Expo last thank you for for agreeing to come on the plantstrong podcast with me and you know sharing a little bit about your journey you know, at the at the front of Upton's naturals, you truly are such an iconic brand, you're such a such a leader in the in this space. And I have mad mad respect for you and what you've been able to accomplish as a entrepreneur in what I think is one of the most difficult places to find success. And that's an that's in food. We, I just cannot believe how every day we're putting out another fire trying to figure out another problem that arises. And I never would have thought that I have the temperament or the mentality for this. And it's been three years now. And I'm finally like, wow, you know, I don't love it. You may love it. I don't love it. But, but but I am learning to deal with it. Yeah. And I love what I'm trying to achieve.
1:02:03
Same here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are definitely days where I just want to get on a plane and go anywhere else and never come back. But yeah, it's a lot of highs and lows, and you just need to do your best to watch out for the people that are trying to get you because they're out there. There's always some new trick that somebody's trying to pull. And just, you know, take it slow, don't. Don't worry about the big money, I guess if you will.
1:02:41
Yeah, yeah. Well, Daniel, on the way out. Where, where can people find you? One of the things that we didn't talk about, and I actually would be remiss if I didn't talk about it very, very briefly is when did you start your DTC business? Can people order your products online and have it delivered straight to their door,
1:03:04
all of the shelf stable items are available on Amazon. Just we're not really set up for fulfillment like that. So that was like the sort of the next best thing since so many people are shopping on Amazon, but we also have a great partner that we started working with this year, called fake meats.com.
1:03:30
Yes.
1:03:32
Who has agreed to handle all of our cold chain shipping as well so you can buy products from them if you're in a part of the country that doesn't have our products, but most most parts of the country have some retailer with at least a handful of our excuse. I mean, we're with Whole Foods globally and sprouts and a number of Kroger and Safeway banners and most of the independent stores the ncgs and frizz of the world and natural grocers and the list goes on and on. So
1:04:16
all right, I'm on the way out. So the next time I'm in Chicago, I'm gonna come to the let me see if I can remember it liberation kitchen. Yes, I'm going to play a little pinball at the world's largest pinball something or other. And I'm also going to get as a call to Greta before Greta for for Greta, or short for Greta. That sounds incredible. Well, Daniel, until I see you next time, yes, keep it vegan and keep that plan strong. And can you hit me with a little fist bump virtually this month? Boom.
1:04:54
And thank you for having me as well. It's been it's been a lot of fun. So
1:04:59
Apps Literally, absolutely. All right. See ya
1:05:03
see it, thanks.
1:05:05
I appreciate Dan's passion, much like my own to create a healthier, more sustainable, and cruelty free world. His determination and integrity are so admirable, which is in part why Upton's naturals has gone from a shared kitchen to 1000s of stores all over the world. I want to thank Daniel and I know he'd agree when I say let's keep it plant strong. Thank you for listening to the plantstrong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. That means everything. The plantstrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening
