#213: Moby and Lindsay Hicks - Mixing Art with Activism
Moby and Lindsay Hicks, creators and co-hosts of of The Moby Pod.
In the ever-changing world of “celebrity culture," it's hard to find someone so resolute about their activism as Moby. He's had undeniable staying power on the music scene, but it’s his vegan activism that has left the most lasting impression.
Moby went vegan in 1987 and remains an ardent supporter of animal rights, climate change advocacy, and humanitarian aid. He is also the author of several books, including memoirs and vegan cookbooks.
Moby, without question, is one of the most prolific and thoughtful thinkers on the planet and he and his co-host Lindsay Hicks recently started The Moby Pod to provide even more insight into their advocacy work.
Lindsay Hicks, like her pal Moby, is also an environmentalist and sustainability expert. On the Moby Pod, they discuss a wide range of topics with humor and humility, providing their unique perspectives on the entertainment industry, animal activism and beyond. In fact, recent episodes have featured everything from guest, Dan Buettner, to writing songs…and even a little paranormal chat!
Richard Melville Hall, 11 September 1965, New York, USA. A New York DJ, recording artist, Christian, vegan and Philosophy graduate. Moby is so nicknamed because of the fact that he can trace his ancestry to the author of the famous whaling tale.
Episode Resources
Reserve Your Ticket for our 12th Annual Plant-Stock - ticket bundles start at just $33!
Join our PLANTSTRONG Sedona Retreat - October 9-14, 2023
To stock up on the best-tasting, most convenient, 100% PLANTSTRONG foods, including our cornbread, teas, stews, pancakes cereals, granolas, pizza kits, broths and soups, check out all of our PLANTSTRONG products HERE.
Give us a like on the PLANTSTRONG Facebook Page and check out what being PLANSTRONG is all about. We always keep it stocked full of new content and updates, tips for healthy living, delicious recipes, and you can even catch me LIVE on there!
We’ve also got an Instagram! Check us out and share your favorite PLANTSTRONG products and why you love it! Don’t forget to tag us using #goplantstrong 🌱💪
Transcription via AI Transcription Service
[0:00] I am absolutely thrilled to announce that in the not too distant future we have two events and there is something for everyone. Now first up on the docket we have our 12th annual Plantstock, weekend celebration. This is going to be a virtual event and it is incredibly affordable.
I hope that you'll join us. We have Dr. Michael Greger speaking to us all about his new book how not to age, and the whole theme of this year's Plant Stock is coming together around food. And in that spirit, we have assembled the most insane list of Brockstar chefs that you can imagine. We've got Max LaManna, who's an award-winning author, social media sensation, and incredible chef.
We have got some of your tried and true favorites like Chef AJ, we have Kim Campbell, we have the other social media sensation, Karlie Bodrug, we have Cameron Clements, Mrs. Plant Based on a Budget, Tony Acomodo, the incredible registered dietitian, Desiree Nielsen, Kiki Nelson, Shane Martin, Jackie Ackerberg, Janet Verney, the list goes on.
And of course, Jane and Ann Esselstyn and my father.
[1:28] Now, the other event that we have coming up in October, from October 9th to the 14th, it is our live Sedona retreat.
It's a life-changing event. Highly recommend that anyone looking to take a deep dive with 80 to 90 other people in this very remote location in the austere Red Rock Mountains outside Sedona, Arizona.
You do not want to miss this. We've been putting these on now for close to 13 years.
And this Sedona retreat is one of my absolute favorites.
We're talking unlimited buffets of plant strong food, yoga, world-class lectures, stargazing, bonfires, pickleball.
[2:19] And all kinds of wonderful bonding and camaraderie. All right, I hope to see you at either or both in the not too distant future.
Whether it's PlantStock or whether it's Sedona, for either one, simply go to plantstrong.com, and then click on either 12th Annual PlantStock or Sedona Retreat 2023.
And I hope to see you at either or both.
You can't go wrong. I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PlantStrong podcast.
The mission at PlantStrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement.
We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with.
We welcome you wherever you are on your Plant Strong journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show.
[3:30] I've been wanting to have today's guest on the show for several years, and finally we were able to throw out our line and reel him in.
He is a truly a whale of a celebrity.
And that's in part because his name is Moby.
And you may know of Moby. He's one of the greatest musicians alive.
So incredibly prolific.
His music is everywhere. In fact, the other night we were watching Stranger Things, and there was some of his music.
You know in this conversation today, we talk about some really really basic things like, What did you have for breakfast? And Why did you decide to go vegan?
Um How did you sleep last night to?
[4:23] You are a self-proclaimed reclusive misanthrope, Talk to me about that We also talk about a new project that mobi has launched with his sidekick Lindsay Hicks and it is a podcast called MobyPod where they talk about all kinds of things in the entertainment industry, animal rights activism, veganism, and even things like exorcism. So quite a fascinating podcast that they have created. But in delving into this conversation with Moby, I realized that He truly is one of the great minds in the world today.
[5:07] He is and makes himself incredibly vulnerable in a world that is angry and scared.
And it was incredibly refreshing.
And I hope that you enjoy this conversation that I had with Moby and Lindsay Hicks as much as I did.
All right, let's take it away.
[5:30] Moby and Lindsey, welcome to the Plant Strong podcast. It's a pleasure to have you guys. I'm super grateful.
Speaking presumptuously for both of us, we are really thrilled to be here.
It's true. He's correct. We are. I like it. I like it.
And you guys, you guys got some pretty good chemistry going on.
You guys obviously recently launched MobyPod, which I want to talk about.
There's lots of things I'd like to talk about today.
But for starters, you guys are in LA, correct?
Yeah. Okay, so it's morning time there. It just broke the afternoon here where I am in Austin, Texas.
So tell me, did you guys have a nice sleep last night?
[6:16] Uh, I will let Lindsay answer first because her answer is probably a lot happier than mine. Okay.
Well, here's what happened to me last night. If we're getting into it, I fell asleep watching the beanie bubble.
And so I had beanie dreams, but I fell asleep on the couch.
And so then I had to do that horrible thing where like you wake up at like one and you have to go do the whole process. And then, so there was a break in the middle of, it wasn't, you know, a consecutive night's sleep, but it was wonderful.
The Beanie Dreams were great. I don't even know, is that a TV show, Beanie Dreams?
Oh, it's Beanie, the Beanie Bubble is about the Beanie Babies craze of the 90s.
And it has Zach Galifianakis and all of these amazing people in it. And it's not bad.
Sarah Snook from Succession.
[7:11] Anyway, it's great and I fell asleep watching it. All right, Moby, you didn't have a great night's sleep?
I don't think I've had a good night's sleep since I was maybe five years old.
So sleep is definitely not my strong suit.
It's one of the main reasons I don't tour anymore is because I sleep badly when I'm home.
I sleep terribly or not at all when I try to go on tour.
Like staying in a hotel room or whatever, I just, I just, my brain won't let me fall asleep.
So last night was average, which means that I woke up 15 times during the night and never slept for more than 90 minutes straight.
Wow.
That, so that does, I mean, that sounds.
[8:00] That sounds rough and I'm wondering, and obviously throughout your life you've medicated with drugs and alcohol, do you do Ambient or any of these sleeping drugs to help you sleep or do you stay away from those?
I have a sleeping drug, there's Lunesta or I think it's called Zopiclone in the rest of the world.
That to me is the drug that I take once or twice a year if I desperately need it.
I'm in New York, or if I'm staying in a hotel, and I absolutely have to sleep, I will take one of those. And it's the ascent, it basically, it's like some robot monster takes my brain and wrestles it into sleep. Like it's a very strange phenomena, to feel like this external thing is actually.
[8:49] Manipulating my brain and forcing it to sleep. So it's disconcerting. But it works. Whereas the rest of the time I just sort of make peace with the fact that I don't know why but I have never in my entire life slept through the night like I guess I've even when I was a teenager I always slept like a 90 year old man so the the only half-assed quasi theory I have is that maybe anthropologically when we lived in caves and we had these you know groups of like 10 20 30 40 people in our tribe, maybe there was the one person whose job was constant vigilance.
[9:31] And maybe on some hereditary level, I have inherited the constant vigilance because, I'm just, yeah, I'm constant. I'm never really in a deep sleep, and I never really sleep for very long.
You know, one of the things I find so impressive about that is that you don't get a great night's sleep.
And you still are able to be so incredibly creative with all your ventures and endeavors.
I mean, Lindsey, you must hear about his not so great night's sleep.
And do you find yourself dozing off during the day at all? Or are you like, go, go, go, go, go?
That's the thing. I never get tired, but I take that back. Every now and then in the middle of the day, I'm hit with this weird, fascinating exhaustion, and I go to sleep for five minutes.
So maybe I'm related to Ben Franklin or something, I don't know, but it's definitely.
[10:32] When I hear about people who sleep well or sleep normally, like Lindsay, and I'm assuming you, and I'm assuming the vast majority of people on the planet, I'm just sort of fascinated at what that would be like, because to me, it's such a foreign concept to put your head down at 10 p.m., sleep for seven or eight hours and wake up?
Because I don't think I've ever in my entire life done that.
Yeah, well, I find sleep to be such a fascinating subject, especially for whatever reason in the last 10, 15 years, it seems like with all the screens and so much, everything that we have going on that people sleep is really suffering quite substantially.
Yeah, you want to hear a slightly funny sleep, minor sleep anecdote, and maybe it's not even that interesting or funny, but I, so about 15 or so years ago, there was a movie released called The Science of Sleep.
And I was so excited to go see it because I thought it was going to be a documentary about what was involved in sleep, like what neurochemicals were involved, the neurotransmitters, like MRIs and fMRIs and all these things about sleep.
Turns out it had nothing to do with sleep. It was a Michelle Gondry movie about relationships in France.
[11:54] And so, but I was really like, I saw the title on my local theater in New York and I was like, oh, I'm so excited to go see this documentary about sleep.
And it had nothing to do with sleep. Similar to when I first moved to LA, I went on a date with a woman and I was so excited because she worked on the show Shark Tank.
And I assumed Shark Tank was a show about sharks.
And so I was so excited to talk to her and be like, wow, have you gone on location?
Have you been in an underwater cage? Like, tell me more about sharks.
And she very quickly said, actually, you're just an ignorant person who knows nothing.
Shark Tank has nothing to do with sharks. At which point I was like, well, might as well just go home and not go on a date.
If you do want to read a good book, Matthew Walker has a book, Why We Sleep, that is exceptional.
Um, so are you guys breakfast people? Have you had breakfast yet since it's 10 a.m.
[12:58] Oh, I mean, it's almost lunchtime. Okay. Okay. Well, did you have breakfast? Yeah.
I mean, I, Lindsay and I both wake up, you know, Lindsay lives about a mile away.
She wakes up early, but not surprisingly, because I am a very old man and a regular old man's body. I wake up between four and five.
So I can't remember the last time I had breakfast after the sun had come up.
Wow. And what do you usually have? Do you want to? Yeah. And here, Lindsey's much more normal, but still by most people's standards, kind of an early riser.
[13:35] Well, yeah, I wake up, I have an alarm set for 6.30 every morning, just weekends, weekdays, all the time, 6.30, mostly because I have Bagel, the tiny dog, and she likes to get out early.
But also because I feel like I need that time in the morning, my quiet time before the day really starts to get my head on straight and to go for a long walk and do all of that stuff, play Wordle and send my scores to all my friends.
But you know- Did you do the Wordle from yesterday?
[14:09] Yesterday's Wordle? Yes, I did do yesterday. I also did today's. I do them every day.
Yesterday I'm trying to remember what it was because I always do it before I go to bed.
And what was it? Anyway, it was kind of tricky.
Yeah. So you usually get it? Six tries?
We've gone pretty deep in that, like, we're on a text thread with a bunch of friends where I can't even count the number of word-related games. I mean, really, maybe this is something we should keep private because it's... It's very nerdy.
Like, it's Wordle, it's ClickWord, it's SquareWord, It's global.
Connections is a new one we've been doing, connections. I mean, it's like, it's just, it's, it's very deep.
If there's a word game. There's also that timeline quiz. Yeah, it's a lot.
Well, because this is the Plant Strong podcast, I'd love to know what exactly, if you guys can remember, what you had for breakfast.
[15:08] I'm very consistent. So I will happily answer with the caveat slash understanding that my answer is not simple and I understand if you want to sort of truncate it for time because I feel like I could, in just answering that question ramble on for like the next 20 minutes.
[15:30] Well okay how about a truncated version? Okay so almost every morning the first thing I do is I make a smoothie and my smoothie I had we had um Dr. Christy Funk on the podcast recently we haven't aired it yet but she and I battled morning smoothies and I, presumptuously think mine might be a little bit more involved than hers so, you ready I'll try and keep this brief it's got broccoli red cabbage kale fresh ginger, fresh turmeric, carrots, apple, orange with the peel, DHA oil, flaxseed, chia seed, bananas, blueberries, strawberries, cherries, blackberries, dark black grapes, red grapes.
[16:21] Zinc, B12, calcium, and triple filtered reverse osmosis water.
Okay, that's a truncated, that's just part one. So that's, that's the beginning of the day then, inspired by our friends in the Shire, the Hobbits, I have a second breakfast, which is Ezekiel seeded bread with apple butter and walnut butter, and organic white tea.
So we could discuss and deconstruct why everything is in the smoothie, et cetera.
But that's my daily breakfast and second breakfast.
Take that Dr. Christy Funk.
That's impressive.
[17:09] Yeah. And Christy Funk is impressive too. She really is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay, what'd you have? Well, I haven't, all I've had this morning is like some pistachios because I really love them.
Shelled pistachios make me feel like I'm some sort of ancient queen, because it's like somebody shelled all of these pistachios, and I can just buy a bag of them with no shells on?
I'm still impressed by that. So I always have a bunch of those in there, because it makes me feel so fancy.
But I also, I usually, I thought I was allergic to coconut until very recently when I had something with coconut in it, and then I didn't feel sick.
And I was like, oh my god, my world is opening up, because all of the best stuff is coconut or, I mean, you know, the coconut stuff is a world I've been missing out on.
So now, I was getting the...
[18:02] Like almond yogurt, the like forager, but now I'm doing coconut yogurt and it's so delicious with raw walnuts and blueberries and blackberries and raspberries and like a ground flax seed on top and it is very delicious.
Well, good. It sounds like you and Moby complement each other very nicely with your breakfast.
I mean, I don't do the whole smoothie thing because I find it to be so very effortful.
Oh, it's a lot of effort, yeah.
It's a lot of effort.
And I also have to feed the dog and she's got a whole process too.
But one day I think I'll be able to set aside the mental and physical energy it takes to be as healthy as Moby is in the morning.
So, Bagel. Is Bagel your dog, Lindsay, or your dog, Moby? Yes, she's right here sleeping on the thing.
Yeah, Lyndy's bagel's mom and I'm bagel's litter maid.
Ah. And if bagel was to be a type of bagel, what kind of bagel would he be or she?
Everything. Possibly the queen of all bagels, the Ur-bagel, the bagel that lives outside of time and space and governs its all existence.
[19:25] You guys. She's like the bagel from everything, everywhere all at once.
She's like the power of the universe. Wow.
[19:33] Tell me, what was the attraction to Bagel? How did you, did you find Bagel? Was it a rescue?
How did you get Bagel? She was a rescue. She was, well, so it's a very long story, but basically a friend of mine, I was having a very hard time finding a foster that fit my certain situation at the time where I had some other dogs in the house.
And a friend of mine is very pro Craigslist for dogs. Because I was trying to go through the proper rescues because I believe that they do amazing work.
I wanted to support them. And I still do.
And I love all the work that these rescues do for the animals.
And I probably will foster at some point. But anyway, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was looking to foster, couldn't find one.
A friend of mine said, the dogs that suffer the most are the ones that are on Craigslist, that are being adopted out on Craigslist because there's no vetting usually, and it can be a very scary situation for them.
And then this friend sent me Bagel's post.
And so then I'm in this headspace of thinking of all of the horrible things that could happen to this adorable tiny puppy. And this post itself was very, very suspect and bizarre.
And I was like, okay, well now I just have to go look and make sure that this little puppy is okay.
If she's okay, then I will leave her. but if it seems as sus as it looks, I have to take this puppy.
[20:56] I wasn't in the market to fully get a dog, but then I saw her and I was like, this is...
Okay. So I go there and it was a mess. The people just were... They were pacing in this really bizarre way and there were people watching. It was very, very strange. And she was just a limp in their arms, this little puppy, just could hardly lift her head up. She was dirty. And I was like, okay, I have to take the puppy. So I took her to the vet. She had seven kinds of parasites.
She was very, very sick. She hadn't properly digested food in way too long. They were like, she may not make it, don't get attached. But she did. I got her on all the medicine necessary. I took amazing care of her. I was like a crazy, kind of like ultimate helicopter dog puppy parent.
And she came out of it and now she's the happiest, healthiest little puppy ever.
Was she named Bagel, or why did you name her Bagel?
Well, first of all, I waited a while to name her. I was living with two other dogs in the house at the time, and so I wanted to find a name that sounded nothing like the other.
[22:08] Two dogs' names so that they wouldn't get confused. So I was working with a couple of specific sounds, and then once I spent time with her and saw her when she's all curled up, in a little, she kind of is in this little bowl. She looks like a little bagel. And so I, and I also thought she looked a little bit like Candace Bergen. So her full name is Candace Bergen bagel. Very, very nice. Speaking of names, names Moby.
Did you get your name? I just think it is the best name. It's awesome.
[22:41] Well, so in the world of, as you know, in the world of music, most people who have oddball names, have picked their own oddball name, like Sting or Bono or Madonna or whomever. In my case, I'm related to Herman Melville, who wrote Moby Dick. And my parents gave me the full name Richard Melville Hall, I believe the third or the fourth before I was born. And because I have uncles named, you know, uncle, great uncle named Richard, and Richard was short for Moby Dick. So it was like all tied into like the Melville relation. And then I was born September 11, 1965 in Harlem, New York. And about 10 minutes after I was born, my mother looked at me and said, Wow, Richard Melville Hall, the third is an incredibly grown up name for this tiny little like Uncle Fester Elmer Fudd of a baby. And my dad as a joke said, Well, let's call him Moby.
And I really think their intent was for me to be called Moby for maybe like a week and now 57 years later I'm still saddled with my infant joke nickname and you probably wouldn't have in any other way.
[24:04] Well, so here's where I'm gonna try and also truncate this because I could ramble on about this way too long So Moby Dick as far as being named after a literary character The only other name I could think of that would be great would be like Prince Mishkin from Dostoevsky's The Idiot, but like the whale Moby Dick on an allegorical level what Moby Dick represents in the book is so remarkable.
Remarkable. It's, you know, it's one of the reasons why Moby Dick is considered like one of the first great works of modern or even postmodern fiction is it's existential like it looks at the human plate like humans place in the universe and Melville set up this.
[24:52] Where you have Ahab representing controlling dogmatic uptight angry humans who are baffled by their place in the universe and furious that the universe doesn't reflect them that the universe is not anthropomorphized. And then you have Moby Dick representing the vast unknowable chaotic forces of the universe. I mean, there's even a soliloquy right in the middle of the right in the middle of the book, when Ahab spells this out so clearly.
Like he basically says that as humans, we're separated from objective understanding of the universe and all he wants to do is tear that down and spit in the face of God, and rip away this sort of facade.
And so he's ultimately, not surprisingly, destroyed by Moby Dick because he's uptight humanity confronted with the vast unknowable forces of the universe.
So that's my long-winded way of saying, if I'm going to be named after anything, I love being named after the vast, unknowable, chaotic, potentially even destructive forces of the universe.
Wow. So Lindsay, are these like some of the conversations that you and Moby have on the Moby pod?
[26:13] Yeah, pretty much. And I, you know, I've, a few, at the, be early in the pandemic, Moby and I had a conversation and eventually came to the decision that I would work with him and run Little Walnut, his production company.
And also do, you know, produce music videos and anything that came up really that seemed creative.
And like, it helped the world to be a better place as far as getting more people to be aware or even try plant-based lifestyles, to understand the effect that animal agriculture has on the planet, to make decisions that, you know, are easier on the climate reality that we're currently living in, and to help other people that want to do the same thing.
[27:03] We wanted to do with the production company and with everything else that we might do.
And when we were, you know, we, I've always thought that Moby would have, would be amazing in a podcast and it's something that we had kind of lightly discussed and we weren't really sure how it would kind of manifest. And, you know, we tried some things out, some more like niche ideas and eventually decided that it would be great to do a podcast, to produce a podcast with Moby that was super general where he could go on tangents just like that one and where he could talk about whatever mattered to him and with whoever he thought had an outlook or perspective that could kind of offer something valuable to the kind of greater consciousness, um, or, you know, whoever feels like listening. So, so we started the the Moby Pod journey.
And I think Moby's perspective is so valuable.
And I think these conversations that we're having are fun and meaningful and silly and highlight human creativity, which I believe is such a hugely important part of existence.
[28:13] And also improves quality of life to the point where people can try a plant-based lifestyle if they hadn't before, if they're feeling creatively fulfilled.
So that was, that is so, so to answer your question, yes, that is a kind of what, what Moby is all about and a lot of what you hear on the podcast.
Yeah, yeah. I've listened to several episodes and I've enjoyed them immensely.
And it is such a wide variety of subject matter and pontificating and always entertaining.
[28:47] But you just mentioned, you know, plant-based, to make more people aware of plant-based animal agriculture and the devastating consequences of animal agriculture. I'd love to hear from both of you in the, And and I know Moby there's a whole, you know animated uh wonderful Short story like why you why you're a vegan, But if you both could share with my audience that probably doesn't know I think that would be great. Maybe the truncated version.
[29:21] Sure so Basically, like almost everybody apart from walking phoenix. I grew up eating garbage, you know, I loved I loved junk food. I loved Burger King. I loved McDonald's. I loved pepperoni pizza. I loved Steakums.
I was, you know, poor white trash in the suburbs and I ate any garbage junk food I could get my hands on.
And the paradox was I also loved animals. You know, we had a house filled, when I was growing up, a house filled with rescued animals from dogs, cats, lab rats, mice, lizards, everything.
[29:58] And I loved these animals unconditionally, but that's central.
And Moby, if I can just like chime in here. So, but whose idea was it to have all these, crazy animals in the house? Was that you or your mom or your dad or?
I think, well, my dad died when I was two. So I think it was just our family.
Like, like, cause my aunts and uncles were the same, know like my aunt and uncle joseph they had cats dogs healthy chickens who were never killed like there was like just everybody in my family had lots and lots of animals around so it it was just, one of those aspects of my family that was never questioned like oh if you have a house you're, gonna fill it with weird rescued animals you know and the idea of i didn't know that pet stores sold pets or companion animals until I was in my 30s because I just I did I had never met anyone who bought.
[30:56] An animal animals were always rescued Thank you. Bye.
[31:00] Bye. Bye.
Growing up with that weird paradox of loving animals, finding so much comfort and companionship in animals, but also eating them. And then when I was 19, I had my Saul on the Damascus, on the road to Damascus moment where I realized, Oh, I love the cats and the dogs I'm surrounded by, why am I actively contributing to the suffering and death of other sentient beings. And that was 1984. And I went vegetarian then and then went vegan in 1987 because I realized that, you know, and I'm stating the obvious for all of us, but that animals who are producing dairy and eggs, and eggs more than the animals who are being killed because at least the animals who are being killed have an end to their suffering.
You know, like the dairy cows and the, you know, the laying hens, et cetera, are suffering, in my mind, are suffering more.
Like if I was a cow, I'd much rather be killed quickly and get it over with than be locked in a metal pen and milked and have my children stolen from me on a regular basis.
So 1987, I went vegan, and it's the only thing that is truly important to me is working to move the needle away from this current, horrifying, destructive, barbaric system.
[32:28] Well, and you've said, you have said, Moby, that your number one job right now is to, you know, basically, animal rights and everything around that.
And your refuge is music, is that correct?
Yeah, that's basically how I feel that.
[32:49] My purpose, my meaning is trying to get trying to trying to do whatever I can with my power to create a world where animals are not subjected to the will of humans. You know, I truly believe every animal is an individual, every animal is sentient, every animal wants to live their own life, according to their own will. And obviously, there's some sort of like, we'll call them like gray areas, like gray area middles, like for example, lovely, phenomenal bagel, the dog, like it's bagels will to live with Lindsay, it's bagels will to hang out with me and play games like, and, you know, just run around and be ridiculous.
Like that's bagel is living a life of her own volition. It just happens to involve humans, whereas, to state the obvious, the vast majority of animals kind of want nothing to do with us.
And that's their god-given right to live their lives according to their will.
And I will do whatever I can with whatever resources I have to try and further that goal and get to that place where like sentient autonomous animals can just live their own lives.
[34:02] Can you, so, and to show your commitment, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, But could you share with me and the audience?
[34:15] Tattoos and what they mean? Oh, sure. Well, I have a vegan for life on my neck. And then next to that, I have a tattoo that says protect the innocent, defend the vulnerable. And then I have animal rights in big letters on my arms. I have a little circle V standing for vegan on my face. I have have, thou shalt not kill on the back of my neck, because that's a pretty straightforward statement that somehow religious people seem to pervert and not understand. So and when the pandemic hit, I was kind of sad for many reasons, but one of which was I had to stop getting vegan tattoos on my face. So I'm hopefully at some point, you'll find a good vegan tattoo artist who can continue covering me with vegan tattoos.
So where would you like the next one to be?
Good question. I'm sort of running out of real estate, so I don't quite know.
Uh-huh. Lindsay, do you have any tattoos?
I do, I do, but none are really related to animal rights. But I do have some, you know, dinosaur. I have the tree star from Land Before Time on my arm.
Yeah, which a lot of people apparently don't know land before time. But yeah, you know, and so.
[35:40] So Moby Moby went, went vegan in 1987. Was it November or October of 1987? Moby?
Yeah, what I what I claim as my vegan anniversary was Thanksgiving 1987. I mean, I mean, I remember the last time I had dairy, I was at a rehearsal space in lower Manhattan in 1987, And I.
The corner and I got a piece of cheese pizza and I bit into it. I was like, Nope, I'm done. And so, yeah, that was 36 years ago. And that was the, you know, I've been vegan ever since. Yeah.
Fantastic. I've been vegan since January of 1987. So you and I are kind of, uh, right, right about the same time. Okay. So that means when you went, Oh, sorry. Oh, I was going to say, So that means that Eugene Bauer and I, I believe possibly, and Gieser Butler from Black Sabbath are possibly the people on the planet who've been vegan the longest. Maybe Joaquin Phoenix, but yeah, we can, we should, we should have a cage match in battle. Like who's the last vegans.
[36:49] You're a cage match right after Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. So you can do like a kind of double feature cage match. Yeah. What about Natalie Portman? I know she's, she's been been vegan for a while. I don't actually, I haven't talked to her in a while, so I don't know. Yeah, yeah. All right. So, so Lindsey, when, when did you go plant-based? Well, I, vegan, you guys, I'm just sounds, Moby, you use the term, I think, vegan. How about you, Lindsey? I go, I go back and forth. I, I tend to people really don't respond well to the the word vegan sometimes.
And so I'll use plant-based as a kind of gentler term, though I don't know that it actually is.
I know I'm probably, you know.
[37:36] I think both are wonderful terms, and I use them alternatively.
I went vegan in 2005, but I was in Texas too.
I was in San Marcos, Texas when I went vegan, which was a very bizarre place to go vegan because people really did not understand it.
I mean, Rip, were you in Texas when you went vegan in 1987?
Yeah, I went to the University of Texas at Austin for college.
And as soon as I graduated and I was off the athletic training table, I went 100% plant-based. So yes, here in Austin, Texas.
Yeah, I mean, and Austin is a great place to decide to go vegan, even in 2005, because, you know, San Marcos is just half of the world.
Way. But it still was hard. And my family did not understand it.
They were like, they again, do you eat chicken? What's under?
I don't understand. And they still kind of weirdly, you know, but now all of their doctors have told them to go vegan, which I think is amazing and shocking. Because, you know, heart issues of anyway, but but yeah, it was 2005. And it was because I was look, I for some reason, was having an.
[38:53] Insomnia moment, which I had in college don't have any more really. And I found the PETA website, and had no, it had never occurred to me that there was suffering in animal agriculture. As a 21 year old, in Texas, it had never occurred to me the suffering that happened because I had kind of bought this idea that all the farms were tiny little sweet farms where, you know, the cows just die naturally. Like I just had bought the story.
I bought the tale for such a long time. And once I kind of looked into it and saw these investigations and my mind kind of opened up to like, Oh my God, I've been lied to.
There's so much suffering in this industry. And so it was really just the, the kind of, I couldn't, I couldn't eat.
Anything that came from something that had suffered, or had caused such suffering.
So I stopped eating meat at that point.
Very, very nice.
Moby, you kind of refer to yourself, or you have, I don't know how you feel now, as a reclusive misanthrope.
[40:14] Is that something, Have you been like that for a long period of time or always?
What are your thoughts on that? Well, so I stopped drinking and doing drugs about 15 years ago.
And pre-sobriety, I was compulsively social. You know, when I lived in New York and I was drinking and doing drugs, the only nights I didn't go out to drink and do drugs were the nights where I was too hung over to go out and drink and do drugs.
So I was out every single night.
And then I got sober and I realized, huh, like my priorities have shifted.
I'm more interested in health. I'm more interested in spirituality.
I'm more interested in activism.
And it's misanthropy, being a misanthrope is a little bit of a tricky thing to talk about because for example, I will occasionally see someone social media post like oh vegans don't like animals more than humans we just like animals equally as humans i'm like well no actually i like animals more uh i if i'm being honest like i love.
[41:25] 10 people in my life a lot i really think empirically and this is a very dangerous thing to say so maybe i shouldn't even say it but that the world would clearly be better off if humans had never existed. We are a terrible species. Present company may be excluded, hopefully, but you look at the consequences of humanity, whether it's microplastics or climate change or deforestation or a trillion animals being killed every year. I personally wouldn't mind if someone flipped the switch and removed humanity from the planet because I just don't see us. I see us, just on mass cumulatively being a remarkable, terrible force for for bad.
Well, yeah, it's, yeah, we are a bit of a plague on the planet.
No, no, no doubt about it. Do you? How do you reconcile that?
And knowing that the world is so I think, as you've said, it's so horrifically broken, how do you find happiness?
And how do you kind of make your way through the day? Like, what's your mentality?
And I think I'm a relatively happy person which is sort of strange given that the world is collapsing but.
[42:49] Uh a lot of my happiness comes from, Incredibly simple things which is sort of contributed to my reclusivity You know, i'm happy, hiking And looking at nature. I'm happy working on music. I'm happy working on creative projects I'm happy hanging out with my friends like bagel and lindsey uh, I'm happy Researching nutrition. I'm at you know, like so many things make me happy but, ultimately with the understanding I mean going back to again the sort of like the existential subtext of moby dick is, Humans will never understand our place in the universe and you could argue.
[43:33] Uh, you know a case could be made That a lot of what we're doing individually and collectively is a response to existential bafflement, you know, the rage that people have the fact that they go out and they, you know, destroy the environment destroy animals destroy each other destroyed people have different skin or genders or what have you like.
I think that's underneath it is just this fear and rage because everybody knows that at some point they die and we have no idea what happens after that.
We don't know if our lives have meaning, significance, importance, and I just think that confusion is behind so many of our individual and collective terrible choices.
Choices. Mm-hmm, well I know you've said that at one point in time, and still, you're very powerful and wealthy and you kind of ran in those circles and now you obviously don't like to run in those circles and you don't particularly like.
[44:39] What these very wealthy, let's just say billionaires, are doing with their power and their wealth.
It's kind of misplaced and misguided.
What would you, and I know you did a post on Instagram, how would you prefer that people, use their power and their wealth? Wow.
I mean, it's on one hand, there's this sort of mild-mannered part of me that's like, oh, well, I don't want to be so presumptuous as to tell people what to do, but when the world is collapsing. It doesn't take a genius to see that like the people with all the money in the world should maybe not be going on vacation, you should maybe not be buying Twitter should maybe not be building vanity project rocket ships. So the, world needs help. And the people with the resources who are not dedicated to helping in a really smart, rational, empirically supported way. It's it's kind of like the old like Nero like fiddling while Rome burns like I feel like that's what the billionaires and the millionaires and the you know.
[45:45] Is doing like I it I don't hear and like on one hand people have the right I guess to be happy, But I don't fully understand. I don't think people fully understand the world is about to collapse like and, I don't see anyone really Like apart from a few people like peter calmus who's a climate scientist. I just don't see people, understanding the urgency Of how bad things are about to get like people look at the news and like oh, 36 people died on a you know a crazy fire in hawaii floods fires But somehow people think that this is just sort of information or news without understanding.
[46:31] Its true Catastrophe and i'm sorry to be such a bummer like i'd much rather talk about happy light-hearted things, but i'm just a little bit baffled that everyone is still treating the apocalypse like it's information similar to, you know, real housewives of Beverly Hills or who the bachelor is going to get married to.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No. Yeah, I think it's really hard for this culture to get their brain wrapped around exactly what's going on.
And you're right. I mean, I feel like the planet is sending us some very, very clear indicators and signals that we're going to go down if we don't collectively do something and do something in a hurry.
And, you know, I think you've said something to the extent of, you know, isn't it crazy, that we're the weirdos for, you know, not wanting to kill and torture and eat animals.
And Lindsey and you and Moby have both said that, you know, animal agriculture represents about I think it's the third leading cause of global greenhouse gas emissions.
Everything that I've read and my research actually shows that it's number one.
[47:51] It's tricky because there's a lot of intersection, obviously, between animal agriculture and oil and gas and coal production. You know, like that's, I weirdly, I had a debate about this with Al Gore, because he was talking about animal agriculture being 15% of climate change. And I, I'd that's based on an IPCC UN report from quite a while ago.
[48:17] And it excludes deforestation.
It also excludes the oil and gas and coal that's required to produce the feed that's required to move the water that the animals are consuming. It's, you know, the, the, the, it's basically didn't look at the energy footprint and, It's So even if it was only 15%, that's still more than every car, bus, boat, truck, plane, etc. on the planet, but it's quite a lot more than that if you expand the methodology in a really accurate way.
Yeah. Well, I know, I think it was 2009, the Worldwatch Institute, part of the World Bank, they did an article called Livestock's Long Shadow, and it showed it was 51%, including the life cycle and the supply chain of all the animal agriculture.
Most recently, there's a gentleman named Celeste Rao, who maybe you know, don't know, don't know, he'd be a great guest on your podcast. He has a nonprofit called Climate Healers.
Brilliant.
[49:24] He used to work at Stanford. And he has a report that shows it's 82% of global greenhouse gas emissions. So yeah.
So you're shouting it from the rooftops. So am I. It's like, we can do something.
[49:40] About this starting tomorrow.
And it's stop eating all animal products and animal byproducts. Well, that's the thing. And I, Lindsay, I'm sorry, I'm rambling on so much. But I will say it's, it's funny, that people still treat this like an opinion, because basically, yeah, the world will at some like humans will at some point stop eating animal products and stop using oil and.
[50:05] Gas, because either will choose to do it, or will be wiped off the face of the planet like they're like the future will not involve humans eating meat, because we'll either figure out can't do that or they'll just simply be no more humans.
I was going to say it's so unfortunate that climate reality has become something so politicized that there are people that say that it's not real because it benefits the corporations that are lining their pockets.
It's such a sad and immoral and it enrages me that it's money and capitalism that has truly is going to be the thing that kills our planet.
And I don't know how you walk that back, especially because it's these people that are...
We were recently in DC and talking about the upcoming Farm Bill, the 2023 Farm Bill, and all of these ways that we could shift the Farm Bill to solve a lot of these problems, to solve the water pollution issues, to solve the issues with the CAFOs, and to increase plant-based food production.
And it's such a steep uphill battle to get these things across because these corporations are so powerful.
[51:33] And they don't care. They have a bottom line. They're on a growth model.
They wanna survive too, but in the process of their survival of these big animal agriculture corporations, the planet dies.
[51:49] Well, you're right. It's gonna be really hard to walk a lot of that back, but I think that, you know, we're all here talking about this because we do have hope.
And, you know, I'll go to my grave with hope. I feel like I have to.
And I think the fact of the matter is, you know, If.
As a species are wiped off the planet here sometime in the next 100 to 200 years, it will ultimately, be a gift to the planet.
So I can kind of reconcile it that way a little bit. Yeah, I mean, it's a dark, sad thing to imagine, but it's also kind of what we're up against.
But what my hope is that that kind of lights a fire under people to want to make decisions, make changes, stop eating meat, buy electric cars, fly less, support groups that are trying to spread this ideology and to really shift our lives and our perspective into making this the number one goal.
Yeah.
I mean, I will just throw out there.
[53:02] It is, Lindsey, to your point, it is horrifying and sad that climate change has become a partisan issue.
What I would say is that opinions about climate change is partisan.
As we've seen in Texas, where you are, you haven't had a day below 100 degrees in the last 35 days.
And Florida is running out of water, and entire towns are being wiped off the face of the Earth with increasingly strong hurricanes on and on again.
So climate change itself, oddly, ironically, is actually decimating red states way more than blue states.
Blue states are bearing the brunt of it a little bit. But you look at what's happening in the Gulf, in Florida, in Texas, et cetera, et cetera.
It's ironic and sad and terrible that people like DeSantis or Greg Abbott are focusing on drag queens.
[54:05] And Bud Light and banning LGBTQAI books from public libraries and calling, I mean, DeSantis recently called climate change a left-wing issue.
And I just wonder why the Democrats aren't asking the simple question, yeah, what about the thousands of people whose homes were destroyed in the last giant hurricane, how is that a left-wing issue?
Like I'm assuming some Republicans have had their homes destroyed by climate change.
Shouldn't, like, how are the Republicans still getting away with denying science and consequences?
It's mind-boggling to me.
Yeah, absolutely mind-boggling.
I'm gonna pivot a little bit here. So one of your episodes of your podcast, You guys talk about anxiety.
You know one of the things that in my research moby Uh of you because i'm just absolutely and.
[55:07] So Impressed with how Vulnerable you make yourself how open you are with everything that's happened in your life, and you In this episode you talk about how you started getting pan attacks I think the first one was at seven when your teacher asked you to draw a picture of an elephant or something, right?
And you got overwhelmed But these have like you've had them throughout your life, What um, what are some coping mechanisms that you guys talked about in that episode or that you have?
Uh, because I think that i've met more people in the last three four or five years, especially since covet, That are dealing with anxiety and panic panic attacks and these are real issues, Yeah, I mean sad there's certain things I'm an expert in And I take no pride or happiness in being an expert in them Like i'm an expert in how to shut down a restaurant. I'm an.
[56:06] I'm an expert How to shave my head because I don't have hair growing on the top of my head like certain things that I wish I didn't Know so well, Um, i'm an expert on how not to be crippled by insomnia But one thing sadly i'm an expert on that and I wish I knew nothing about is how to deal with panic and how to deal with anxiety.
Like I take no pride or joy in being an expert on panic attacks, but because I've been dealing with them, for such a long time, I have figured out quite a lot.
I mean, like I wouldn't even know where to start in terms of how to best deal with them.
Cause there's so many wonderful ways from cognitive behavioral therapy and EMDR and general talk therapy and some medications, I won't criticize medications because those can be lifesavers for people, but then, you know, avoiding stim, you know, like, I love caffeine, but try to avoid caffeine, especially afternoon.
[57:08] And also, as we know, there is a correlation between anxiety and general physical health.
Like people who exercise a lot, people who eat incredibly well and have like whole food vegan diets or plant based diets, tend to just simply have less anxiety than the general public because their bodies are less stressed. and, Uh, I mean also one thing I will say like if someone came to me and said they're having panic attacks.
[57:36] The first thing anyone can do that's surprisingly easy is breathing exercises, And it won't solve them long term, but you as the dali lama said you can't really have, a panicking brain in a calm body and I would say like You know box breathing which is like, you know what the military teaches as soldiers in order to be less anxious as you breathe in for a count of six or eight, hold for a count of six or eight, exhale for a count of six or eight, and then maybe hold your breath out, you know, after the exhale for six, and just keep doing that, and eventually anxiety will wane.
The last thing I'll say about that is of course, to be relatively free of anxiety, I think everyone needs to develop a toolbox of skill sets, But I do find that like breathing exercises can be like the first line of defense in addressing and quasi ameliorating anxiety.
How much has music helped you to reduce anxiety? Because I know that you like you play the drums just about every day, right? It's kind of therapy.
[58:46] Yeah, I mean, I've been playing music since I was nine. And I, of course, I'm in love with playing music and listening to music and recording music.
But about 20 years ago, started working with a neuroscientist called Oliver Sachs and his partner in neuroscience, Dr. Connie Tomeno. They have an organization called the Institute for Music and Neurologic Function.
And through working with them, they've used diagnostic tools like fMRIs and PET scans and, you know, all sorts of blood work to basically prove and demonstrate that mutants are not, just fun. Music isn't just beautiful, it's a profound healing modality. Like, I mean, I don't want to get too nerdy, but it decreases stress hormones. It promotes neurogenesis, especially in the hippocampus. So, music, it is a proven, remarkable way of addressing anxiety, addressing depression. And the funny thing with that, and I'm almost going to compare it to it to veganism is, in a weird way.
[59:54] We don't have to convince people to care about animals.
They already care about animals. We just have to say to them, extend it one step and stop hurting animals, stop eating them. The same thing with music.
Everybody already knows that music is powerful. There's an extra layer of power when you recognize that it is a proven empirically supported healing modality.
Yeah, and didn't you recently produce, come out with Ambient 23?
[1:00:25] Yeah, I started making ambient music a long time ago, inspired by Brian Eno, but about 15 years ago, I started making ambient music just for myself.
And at some point I realized I had dozens of hours of ambient music that I was using to help me sleep, to help me meditate when I did yoga.
And I thought, why not start releasing it for free? And so I've released a bunch of longer ambient albums that I've made for myself in the hope that other people might find them and be able to be less anxious.
[1:01:01] I think it's, I'm trying to remember here. Um, it was in.
Think I think it was in the punk rock vegan movie that you did within the last probably two years.
[1:01:14] You let people know what it means to be straight edge and I want you to let our listeners know what it is to be straight edge but I also have a question for you are Lindsay and I straight edge Or no way. Well, so straight edge, it depends who you talk to, uh, there's gentle straight edge.
And then there's militant straight edge. I mean, there have been in the history in the 40 or 50 years that straight edge has existed, there have been some very militant people who have very, aggressively tried to punish people who are not straight edge, which clearly, that's not such a a great approach. Straight edge, at its most basic, is clean living. You know, it's sobriety, it's veganism, it's self-care, and it's, you know, being, you know, looking after others as well.
And so, to that end, I think of myself as straight edge. It was sort of invented by Ian Mackay from Minor Threat, but it's basically the idea of you're given a body, you're given a brain, try not to hurt it, try not to pollute it, and be respectful of yourself and respectful of others. So in terms of you guys being straight edge, if some militant straight edge people might take issue with anyone who drinks alcohol or who takes mind-altering substances, you know what?
[1:02:43] I'm, I the only reason I don't drink it's because i'm an insane bottomed out alcoholic who can't drink, and actually be alive, so, I don't know some militant people might Not be willing to consider you guys as straight edge But i'm like, you know what you're vegans and you're using your talents and intelligence to try and make the world a better place So even if you're not straight edge, maybe you're better than straight edge Yeah, lindsay. I think we're we're I think we're straight edge. I'm definitely not straight edge but I do value the movement and I think it's beautiful.
And I would be straight edge if I didn't enjoy the occasional like glass of natural wine with, you know, a fried cauliflower.
[1:03:25] Moby, so you're part of this cult of sobriety. You've been part of that for about 15 years.
Do you ever have any pull to want to do any drugs or any alcohol again, Or do you feel like that's behind you?
Or is it ever behind you?
Do you know, it's so interesting because, I mean, it's a dangerous thing to say.
And if anyone's in a 12-step program and they hear me say this, they might be scared at what I'm about to say.
But like, I haven't been tempted to drink or do drugs in at least 12 or 13 years.
Like, it's similar to meat and dairy.
Like, I haven't been tempted by meat or dairy since the late 80s.
And as you know it like the longer you go without something especially if you've given up something for very compelling rational good reasons, Time passes and you just simply don't think about it anymore. So it.
[1:04:22] Alcohol and drugs it never Crosses my mind and I hope that continues to be the case because it's really nice, Being alive and being healthy and not being tempted to go out and be a drunk, drug addicted idiot like I was.
You guys. Like when I hear Lindsay say like she enjoys a glass of wine, there is something that alcoholics will never understand, and it's best summed up with something I said to someone after I got sober.
I was out to dinner with some friends. This is like a year after I got sober and they all ordered drinks and none of them finished their drinks.
And I remember getting kind of mad at them. And I was like, you guys aren't alcoholics.
Why aren't you drinking more?
And I said, if I wasn't an alcoholic I would be drunk every day of my life.
And I kind of started laughing. I was like, wow, I guess I've just proven to myself that I'm an alcoholic because non-alcoholics don't tend to think that way.
Why do you think so much?
This culture society is so attracted to drugs and alcohol.
[1:05:41] Wow. I mean, the, the, the, my glib answer is because obviously alcohol and drugs are fantastic. Like I didn't become an alcoholic and a drug addict because I disliked them. I loved them way too much.
[1:05:58] You know, it's just an obviously, and sorry, And I know I'm just rambling on way too much.
I really feel like I'm talking over you guys and I apologize for that.
But I will say there is such a sub, like a current within our species and culture where we love being removed from our quotadian existence, whether that's through- Wait, can I stop you for a sec?
So your vocabulary is off the charts insane. What was that word you used? Kirkordian, was it?
I wish I'd used accordion. That's way better.
Our accordion existence, that's funny. Yeah, I'm more, accordion existence is a much better expression.
I mean, quotidian existence. What does that mean?
It's a fancy way of saying daily existence, like the restaurant pan quotidian.
So how do you have such a vocabulary? Do you just, are you a voracious reader?
Yeah, I, when I got sober and I started going to AA meetings, I realized so many people in 12-step meetings, their first addiction was books and reading.
You just kept hearing this, like people who were like five years old, six years old, discovered books and like started compulsively reading and then a few years later discovered alcohol and drugs.
So yeah, I've been an obsessive reader since I was maybe four years old or five years old. Well, cheers.
[1:07:26] Be awesome. So, so I'm sorry, you were answering the question about why people turn to drugs and alcohol.
Oh, just that I think the hardest thing for any of us to do, and the hardest thing for almost anybody to do is to sit with reality as it currently is presenting itself. And I know that's true for me, like, just imagine sitting for 10 minutes, not even meditating, just sort of being present with what is.
And it's so hard, like I want to like play with my phone, read a book, listen to some music, jump around, write something, like be distracted in some ways.
And some of those distractions are wonderful, and I truly love them, but obviously as a species, we love anything that prevents us or takes us out of this accordion existence.
Beautiful, way to bring it back home.
I also think that people don't like it is not stressed in our upbringing enough to develop.
[1:08:27] Coping mechanisms for difficult feelings or difficult situations or things that we don't understand and our feelings have become unmanageable.
And so anything that can help us manage that feeling other than some sort of habit or internal work, there's something outside of you that you can go buy at the store for $12 that for an hour less than that.
[1:08:56] Comfort of being a human in the world, which is inherently a very uncomfortable thing. So I think that like, you know, I watch I've talked, I've told the story before, but I have these two friends, Cassie and Christy, who are raising a little girl right now. And one day we were at their house, and something was happening, the baby was getting uncomfortable, this baby was probably a year and a half old at this point. And they go, Okay, what do we do when we start to feel uncomfortable, and little baby, a year and a half old sits back in her high chair and starts taking deep breaths.
[1:09:31] Wow. And I don't, I like, sometimes I, that doesn't even occur to me as like a woman in, her thirties. And I'm like, wow, this Lindsay, I thought you were going to say she sat back and started like looking at cartoons on her iPad. No, no. I mean, I have seen her do that before, but no, in this moment she sits back and she just starts taking deep breaths and starts to be able to like self-soothe. And I think most people don't know how to do that. I mean, I'm still learning how to do that in a way, how to self-soothe when I'm dealing with uncomfortable feelings.
And I think that a lot of people will just turn to booze or drugs because they're easy and they're quick and it doesn't take any work, really.
Yeah. Yeah. Booze, drugs, and of course, phones. I mean, phone discipline is one of the, to state the obvious, one of the hardest things because it's always there and it's always going to deliver something new and something engaging. It's like, I, one of.
[1:10:31] The things I'm proud of is I've been, I've had to train myself to have good phone discipline, where I only look at social media for 10 minutes a day in the morning. And it's really hard because Lindsay, to your point, like when I'm feeling uncomfortable in the middle of the day, like I want to open Instagram animals or look at TikTok and look at videos of people in Alabama punching each other on a dock. There's always something there and it's really hard to be like okay no I can't like I've got this discipline and I'm gonna stick with And it's, but yeah, sitting there.
What is is arguably one of the single hardest things any of us can do, at least for me.
So does that mean that you are a, do you meditate?
Not as much as I'd like to, but yeah, I mean, over the last 20 some odd years, I've learned a ton of different meditation practices and they're all there, you know, whether it's of Vipassana, whether it's mindful, I mean, mindfulness and Vipassana are sort of the same thing.
You know, different meditations from different traditions, and some of them are really fun.
Some of them are very insightful. Some of them are just calming.
[1:11:48] But there it's, it's almost the thing of like, and I don't know if this is your guys experience, the more I need the meditation, the less likely I am to do it.
[1:12:02] So I've, like I said, I've listened to several of your podcasts, and I listened to the one, on your friend, Lindsay, Rachel, who's the exorcist. Yes.
And that was really spooky, especially at 10 minutes, right, when the audio did something really freaky. Yeah.
But, you know, the conversation around entities and demons and spirits, and I'm just wondering, And then Moby, you had your experience when you were younger, right, at the place that house you used to play at, where you heard somebody calling your name, but it was in a nice way, right, not in a dangerous way.
[1:12:51] Point is, like, you're the podcast, I was fascinated by that episode. Because I think that a lot of us want to know, is there something else out there like this?
[1:13:06] And I, yeah, I think, as much as a loudmouth I am, I would not even begin to know how to answer that. Because I, when we were talking to Rachel, I just kept having this thought, like, because she talks about these, demons and these entities in a very literal way. Yeah. And I, just don't know, like, is it literal? Is it energy? Is it how much of it is just going on in our own brain? I personally, I'm completely agnostic, except for a few experiences I've had. But again, I don't know what the truth of those experiences are.
I'm an unreliable witness. So I personally, I just have no idea.
Well, it was interesting to me when you got that poltergeist book, and then the first story was on the burned down old, I think it was barn where you used to play.
It was so, yeah, it was very disconcerting. So, because the people who are listening, so I'll just quickly recount it.
Basically, when I was nine and 10 years old, I lived in Stratford, Connecticut, and I lived on Elm Street, I think it was 1565 Elm Street, and down the street from us was this big, empty area adjacent to the Shakespeare theater. And my friends and I used to play there, it was it was basically the foundation of a house that had burned down.
[1:14:32] And when we were living in this house in Stratford, after I started playing there, I started, I would go home and I would hear my name being whispered very clearly, not in like a bit, but it didn't scare me, which I talked about this in the podcast, what was so weird, everything scared me. For some reason, hearing a disembodied voice whispering my name didn't scare me like almost everything else in the world did but not this. And while we were living in the house, a bunch of strange things happened like there was, you know, plates would fly off tables. When this entity or whatever it was, wasn't happy with someone, it would let like, stuff happened. It potentially saved our lives by waking my mom up as our house was filling with carbon monoxide, lots of stuff.
And whether anybody believes me or not, doesn't really matter.
But then I never talked about this with anyone. And a couple of years later, as I talked about in the podcast, sorry for repeating what's in our podcast.
[1:15:34] I bought a book about poltergeists.
And the first story in the book was based on this house that had burned down down the street.
Yeah. And here's where it gets.
Weird enough, but it gets especially weird as I ran into the living room and I said, mom, I've got this book on poltergeist.
The first story happened down the street in Stratford from where we lived.
And I said, and it's so strange. Like when I never told you when I lived in that house I would hear my name being whispered and my mom turned white as a ghost.
And she said, I used to hear your name being whispered too. I just, she just never told me cause she didn't want to scare me. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:16:12] So I still don't know what to make of that. And if someone came to me and said, I don't believe it, I'm like, I don't care.
Well, and you also, and then part of that story too, if I remember from the podcast, is there was a man that came into the house and somehow either a ghost of you or you somehow presented itself and the guy went away.
Yeah, my mom was dating a guy named Al who worked at a gas station.
She had really good taste in guys.
And she was trying to break up with him and late at night, like two in the morning, He pulled out a carving knife and was about to stab her because he would come by with guns, He was very unhinged doing tons of drugs, And he was a according to her he was about to kill her And this was where it gets super weird and I have no idea what the truth of it is, She said I showed up in the kitchen, But I have no recollection. She said I just showed up and I it's like and according to her I I materialized.
And again, I know that sounds insane.
I don't know what the truth of it is. Maybe I heard a noise and walked downstairs and they didn't notice me.
But she said, it freaked him out so much. Six foot five Hells Angels, Al, who collected guns and was about to kill her, he threw the knife down, ran away, and would never set foot in the house again. So, the whole thing...
[1:17:36] I, again, I don't know what the truth of any of this might be, but it certainly was interesting.
[1:17:45] What's the name of the song that you did that is a part of Stranger Things, When It's Cold I Want to Die? When It's Cold I'd Like to Die, yeah. It's called I'd Like to Die.
So I don't know who listening has seen Stranger Things or not, but it kind of made the rounds about four years ago and I think there's four seasons. I have three kids, Moby and Lindsey. They can't get enough of Stranger Things and when I told them that, you know, Moby's got this song and I played it for him and they were like, oh yeah, that was in.
[1:18:22] Season one when Hopper... It's actually, sorry to jump in, but self-involvedly they used it twice.
It's in season one for about a minute, but it's in season four, in the final episode of season four, they play pretty much the whole song and it's emotionally so intense.
I don't know, Lindsey. So intense.
I was shocked. It was so, because I don't remember if I knew that that was going to happen before I watched the episode or not, but it's the most, it's like this character has this moment and it's so emotional And you just can't but it's it's deep and.
[1:19:03] Amazing and I I love that they use that song. I think the song is perfect For that moment. Yeah, how did I mean? That's just did they come to you mobi and say hey, can we use this song?
How does that work? I didn't I don't Control my music so I didn't even know they were going to do that I was watching Stranger Things season four and all of a sudden started playing. I was like, oh, cool. They're using it again And it just kept going and it got so emotional and I had the very disconcerting, experience of getting choked up and almost crying listening to one of my own piece of music because the see it's It's so intense if you haven't seen it, I would it what it won't make sense if unless you watch all of the stranger things but basically a bunch of intense things happen and it's very emotional. Yeah, incredible.
[1:19:55] So what about with like extreme ways that I think is part of the Jason Bourne? Is that something where they contact you and say, hey, we want this to be part of this and we want to do a a licensing agreement or how does that work? Well that's a funny one.
[1:20:12] Simon, the director, he made the first Bourne movie, and they came to me in 2002 to use this song, Extreme Ways. And Extreme Ways was supposed to be a huge hit single and it failed completely. Like we made this expensive video, we released it, thinking like, oh, this is going to be a big single, it just disappeared.
It was, it got played once on MTV, no radio play, which is like an abject failure of a single release, but they used it in this movie. And honestly, when the movie was released, no one expected it to do well, because is Jace is the born move like these were based on books that like old men read.
And I think everyone just thought like, okay, it's an obscure movie, it's going to come out, it's going to go away. But somehow the movie was great. And the song was featured very prominently in the end. So it becomes a little funny. They came back to us when they're making the second one. They're like, hey, we'd love to license the song again. And they admitted, they'd wanted to license something else. But basically, they ran out of time. And so it got included in the second one.
[1:21:25] Movie simply because they didn't have time to license anything else. And then it just kept showing up in the third and fourth. I don't know how many they made eventually. But yeah, it sort of became the sort of de facto soundtrack for those movies. And what makes it funny, another little funny anecdote is I was talking to some friends who work at the CAA or who used to work at the CAA now, CIA. And they said that that song has become the unofficial anthem for a lot of people who work at the Center for intelligence agency. I know whenever I hear that, I think of Matt Damon, I think it is, yeah, that played Jason Bourne. He just like walks out of an explosion, kills the bad guy, and then that music plays. It is so perfect, so absolutely perfect. Has that been your biggest licensing success?
Do you know in a way that you're not going to be able to do that?
You know, in a way...
Oh, and by the way, I have an unfortunate bit of information. I have to I have to go in a few minutes. Yeah, no problem Yep. Sorry about that. Yeah, and But in terms of the biggest licensing success, so this in.
[1:22:39] 1999 I released the album play and When it was released it was a very dark time in my life Like I was bottoming out as an alcoholic and a drug addict My mom had just died and I was kind of a has-been by 1999 so when the album play came out no one expected it to do well you know it sold 4,000, copies worldwide in the first week it was released and we thought that was really successful, it eventually went on to sell I think around 12 million copies but so it was released no radio play no press no nothing like it just it was an obscure record that kind of was about to disappear, And then Danny Boyle, the director, licensed the song Porcelain for the movie The Beach with Leo DiCaprio. And the music was used so prominently. And this was Leo's first movie after Titanic, so everybody saw it. And weirdly, it was that license, which wasn't very lucrative, but the music being used in The Beach by Danny Boyle, like that was definitely a huge turning point in the success of that record.
Hmm What do you have do you have like four minutes five minutes you tell me, Just like I think five five minutes would be great. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, great. Um.
[1:24:04] So you're one of your next door neighbors was was paul rubens and uh, I take it you were you became good friends with him, Yeah, actually lindsay. I don't know if you know this but the last time I saw paul slash peewee Lindsay and Bagel and I were going for a walk and this car pulled up next to us and it was Paul being driven by a very handsome young man.
Paul did like very handsome young men and he lived, so Lindsay lives half a mile from me.
Paul lived half a mile from both of us, sort of like up towards Griffith Park in Los Angeles.
And so I used to see him all the time and he was such a kind I'm not just saying this because he's dead now, but he was just such a gentle kind person who actually after many, many years.
[1:24:56] A vegetarian, maybe not full vegan, towards the end of his life.
You know, if you don't mind, I'd also like to ask you about two other people that have passed away, and that is Sinead O'Connor, who you did Harbor with, and then also David Bowie, who you just, say is so... and you did a whole podcast episode, you and Lindsay did, on you know, going on tour with David Bowie and how he's just so...
Was such a remarkable man. So if you could just comment on Sinead and David David Bowie.
Yeah, Sinead, I mean, obviously, like so many people, I'm going to work under the assumption that that includes all of us.
In the mid 80s, I mean, she was such a force of nature. I mean, like this huge pop star with nothing compares to you, but also politically active.
[1:25:44] Engaged, at the time, vegetarian, shaved head, and so beautiful.
You know, I mean, that's like really has occupied kind of a unique place in the pop music pantheon.
And in 2000 or 2001, I wrote I'd written this sort of very delicate folk song and I really wanted to hear her sing it.
So I reached out to her and we we worked on it together. And then I would see her occasionally.
And I'm gonna try and say this very gently, compassionately and diplomatically, I was genuinely concerned.
The last few times I saw her, like, there are times when you know that things, things are.
[1:26:28] When people are struggling. And I just kept, every time I saw her, I just got the sense, like, okay.
[1:26:34] She struggled, like, there's a lot of struggle. I don't know if it's substances or emotional issues, but there was a lot of struggle. And so when she died, I simply was sad.
Surprised and just hope that she found the piece that seemed to avoid her while she was alive.
Yeah. How about David Bowie?
Well, David is, I mean, he was my favorite musician of all time. First job I ever had.
[1:27:01] I only held it long enough to save enough money to buy David Bowie records. And then in the late 90s, we became neighbors. We became neighborhood buddies, we went on tour together. We went on.
[1:27:15] Hikes together when I walked together and I just the entire time I couldn't believe it like I'm friends with David Bowie the greatest musician of all time I'm having coffee with David Bowie I'm going on tour with David Bowie like it just every minute I spent with him I was like I'm in the presence of a demigod and uh yeah so I will say he had been battling health issues for quite a a long time. So I remember I was actually Lindsay, you and I were having dinner at Little Pine, when I found out that he had died. And I was, of course, very sad, because he's the greatest musician who's ever lived and a dear friend. But I was also in a way happy, because he had been battling these issues for quite a while health issues. And I was just thrilled that he had all this extra time with his wife and his daughter. Because I thought he might have passed away quite a quite a long time ago.
[1:28:12] Ago and I was thrilled that he just had, you know, basically an extra decade of being alive with his family. Yeah, wow. Well, what, how remarkable that you have had the opportunity to collaborate with so many amazing artists, Chris Christopherson, including, and I mean, I mean, the list goes on and on and on, you know, this, what's his name in the heart, Gregory?
Oh, Gregory Porter. Yeah. That song, I just, I listened to it over and over and over again.
Absolutely love it. I know we're running behind time here and you gotta shoot, but.
[1:28:48] Lindsay and Moby, congratulations to you guys on starting MobyPod and getting that out into the universe. You guys have such an important message, such a great voice. From the ones I've listened to, it's just so compelling, informative, entertaining. You just have such a nice, creative mix of everything. So, congrats. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So, hey, let's say goodbye for now.
If you guys wouldn't mind giving me a fist bump on the way out. Plant strong.
Okay, how, how, oh, okay.
Okay. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that is. By the way, thank you so much for everything, that you do as well, Rip. And regarding animal rights and addressing animal agriculture and promoting plant based vegan, I'm going to say vegan, no one else has to. And also, that's, the first time I've ever done a virtual fist bump. So it's rare as a 57 year old guy, I and say like, wow, I had never done a virtual fist bump before.
So I have to go take some time and process that.
[1:30:01] Awesome. All right. See you guys. Keep up the good work. All right, thank you. Thanks, Rep.
I think you'll agree with me that it is so refreshing to hear someone talk so openly and unapologetically about their past, their struggles, and even their concern for the future.
I know that it can sometimes feel super heavy, but shows like this one, the MobyPod, and so many others exist to educate and continue to be the change that we all want to see.
You can listen to Moby and Lindsay on the MobyPod, and I'll be sure to put a link to that in the show notes today.
Until then, thanks so much for listening. Please, please follow and share the show and always keep it Plant Strong.
[1:30:59] Thank you for listening to the Plant Strong Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants.
Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything.
The Plant Strong Podcast team includes Cary Barrett, Lori Kortowich, Amy Mackey, Patrick, Gavin and Wade Clark.
This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look, through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth.
Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Anne Cryle Esselstyn.
Thanks for listening.
