#174: Paul Chatlin - Broccoli Over A Bypass Saved This Man’s Life
Paul Chatlin, founder of PBNSG.org
Picture this – you’re about to be wheeled into the operating room for triple bypass surgery. One artery is 100 percent blocked and two others are 65 percent blocked. You have an enlarged heart, leaky valves, and a heart murmur, among other issues.
At the eleventh hour, your cardiologist says, “Look, we can do this triple bypass, or you can try whole food, plant-based diet.” You have no idea why, but you choose a plant-based diet. Surely it’s easier than a triple bypass.
Thanks to the work and encouragement of a certain Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr, you make the radical lifestyle change and your angina disappears within three weeks, putting you on a path to health, self-discovery, and a new purpose in life.
Today, we're sharing the remarkable true story of Paul Chatlin. Inspired by the radical shift in his health and the desire to spread the word about plants, in 2014, Paul created the Plant-Based Nutrition Support Group or PBNSG for short. PBNSG is dedicated to evidence-based education and advocacy of plant-based whole-food nutrition and an active lifestyle to prevent and reverse disease. They provide classes, community, and plenty of support to guide people in this transformation and optimize health.
Paul is a true go-getter, working from the heart (pun intended) to help spread to good word about whole food plant-based nutrition.
Episode Resources
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Full YouTube Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello Plantstrong family. One of the best parts of my day is waking up and having the opportunity and the privilege to read letters from people like you, who have taken their health into their own hands. And today I want to share a note from Rosie who attended one of our most recent retreats in Sedona, Arizona with her beautiful daughter Teagan. Here you go.
"Dear Rip and the whole Plantstrong team, I want to give a big shout-out to say that I have had great success following the Every Bite Matters whole-food plant-based way of eating since my daughter Teagan and I attended this Sedona retreat this past October. It's been 37 days since I started down the path. I am currently 31 pounds lighter than I was when I started. After completing a new blood panel, my blood pressure is now down 80 points on my systolic, the upper number, and 26 points, on the diastolic, the lower number. My total cholesterol has come down from two 50 to 175. That's a drop of 75 points. My LDL came down 45 points, and my A1C is 5.1.
I am proud to say that I have discontinued all medicine for high blood pressure, and I am beyond excited and wanted to share this with you and your team. Beyond all that, the single most profound and extremely unexpected gift that I have received from this retreat adventure, bar none is this, self love. Thank you Rip, via my daughter via the Rich Roll Podcast. With love, gratitude, and best of everything to you and your fantastic team. And I mean, fantastic team. Thanks again for everything. Love Rosie."
Well, Rosie, it was so fantastic having you and your daughter join us for the Sedona Retreat. And if my memory serves me correctly, you were the last two signups, and it was just so appropriate that you guys were able to attend. And I remember your daughter's story of strength over pain, and resilience over obstacles, and it's one that I think will stick with everyone that was in attendance. You two you make one heck of a great team. And again, so glad that you decided to join us. What a gift that you guys gave each other. Please keep me and the whole Plantstrong team posted on all your adventures going forward.
Now, for anyone else out there, I want you to know that we just announced our return to Black Mountain North Carolina. It's going to be this spring from April 16th to the 21st. And I want you to come and experience your own adventure, just like Rosie and Teagan did. For all the details, just visit plantstrong.com, and then on the pull down menu, select Black Mountain Retreat. Or you can simply send us an email at events@plantstrong.com, and one of us will happily get back to you, and help you decide if this retreat is in fact right for you. It truly is the ultimate gift that you can give yourself. So again, I want to thank Rosie for writing in and letting us know about her success. And I can't wait to see many of you next spring in Black Mountain.
Paul Chatlin:
So when I finished the book, I spent four hours at Whole Foods, I'll never forget it, reading labels and learning, "Oh my God, no wonder why I'm so bad off, oils in everything." So that was the day I got rid of everything out of my pantry that wasn't healthy. And sectioned half for my wife, half for me, and then boom, went to Whole Foods and filled it back up with fruits and vegetables, beans and whole grains. And my journey began.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the PlantStrong Podcast. The mission at Plantstrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living, and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your Plantstrong journey. And I hope that you enjoy the show.
Picture this, you're about to be wheeled into the OR for triple bypass surgery. One artery is a 100% blocked and two others are 65% blocked. You have an enlarged heart, leaky valves, and a heart murmur among other issues. At the 11th hour, while you're being wheeled in on a gurney for surgery, your cardiologist says, "Look, we can do this triple bypass, or I can give you the name of this surgeon that has this crazy plant-based diet that supposedly can halt and reverse heart disease." And you have no idea why, but you choose the crazy plant-based diet, because surely it's got to be easier than a triple bypass. Thanks to the work and the encouragement of a certain doctor, Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr, you make the radical lifestyle change. And guess what? Your angina disappears within three weeks, putting you on a path to health, self-discovery, and a new purpose in life.
My friends, I am sharing the true story of my guest today, Paul Chatlin. Paul was inspired by the radical shift in his health and the desire to spread the word, the good word about plants. And Paul created the plant-based nutrition support group, or as we like to say, PBNSG for short in 2014, PBNSG is dedicated to evidence-based education, and the advocacy of plant-based, whole-food nutrition and an active lifestyle to prevent and reverse chronic western diseases. PBNSG provides classes, community, and plenty of support to help guide people in this transformation, and optimize their health. My family and I are friends and supporters of Paul and this really spectacular organization. So I wanted to share his story with you today, especially if you find yourself at a crossroads with your own health journey. Paul's a true go-getter, working from the heart to help spread the good word about whole-food, plant-based nutrition. Enjoy this special episode with Paul Chatlin. Paul, it is absolutely a privilege to have you on the podcast.
Paul Chatlin:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Been meaning to have you on for a long time. So I'm glad that we finally made this a reality. I do need to say, apologize for my voice. And what happened is I went to a swim meet this weekend. And one of my old swim managers when I swam at University of Texas at Austin, his name's Sam Kendricks, and he went on to become literally the voice of swimming in America, the best announcer that this country has ever seen. And he died. He died of blood cancer about four months ago, gem of a human being.
He used to say during a really tight race, like, "Boom-Chaka-Laka." And so the gentleman that was MC-ing this memorial service had us at the very end say, "Boom-Chaka-Laka," as loud as we could, so that all the way in Melbourne, Australia and Germany, everybody could hear it across the world. So I yelled so bloody loud that I haven't been able to talk for the last two days. And now I've got a semblance of a voice for you, Paul, but I didn't want to push the interview, because we got to march forward in life, right?
Paul Chatlin:
I like it, yes. And you sound fine to me, man. I mean, I think you sound just raspy, sexy [inaudible 00:08:40]-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I like it. And you know what? And look at this shirt I'm wearing, Paul. This is one of my favorite shirts in the whole wide world. WTF, wears the food, right? This is your little puppy, your little organization, PBNSG that you started in what? 2014? Is that right?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah, it was late 2013, '14, right then. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. And we're going to get into this whole story about what PBNSG is and why it's so special, why you are so absolutely precious and special. But what does PBNSG stand for? Paul?
Paul Chatlin:
Plant-based Nutrition Support Group.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love it. And you know what, I think this is the perfect time for us to jump in, because a lot of people probably don't know about you. They probably don't know about your story. And what inspired you to start PBNSG? That really is one of the most incredible plant-based nutrition support groups in probably the world. And so let's start at, let's go back. So where did you grow up, and what did that look like?
Paul Chatlin:
All right. I grew up in Detroit, moved in eighth grade to the suburbs. My life was centered around sports. And in my teens it was girls in sports.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Paul Chatlin:
And then in my later teens it was other things and girls and sports, but it was all about sports. I played football, basketball, baseball. I played baseball in college. I was a sports person. So it probably just was perfect with my personality, because I'm always on the move. And I got to keep busy. And as my mom used to say, "The busier you are, the less trouble you'll get in." And that was somewhat true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, and so did you have brothers and sisters?
Paul Chatlin:
I've got a sister who's a year older, and that's what I got. And then I've got a bunch of brothers like you who I found along the way, that I feel close to.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. And so growing up, what did you guys think was the definition of healthy? I mean obviously you exercised a lot. Did you guys eat the Standard American Diet? Anything special in that way?
Paul Chatlin:
Healthy was working out. That was it. Just keep moving, keep eating, keep in movement. But growing up, no attention to any type ... Of course we had our salads, but they probably weren't the right lettuces. And my mom did, as a kid growing up, say to me that, "You're going to finish those peas." And she has all night. And literally her and I would just stay at the dinner table till about 8:00, 9:00. And finally I'd give in and learn how to swallow peas and beans. I was not a big vegetable person, so she gave it her attempt. But not much attention to health, because not many people knew about health then.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, it's true. I mean, I don't think ... Really, I mean, it's incredible to me how our definition of what it means to eat healthy has evolved since you and I have been around. And I look at what people like T. Colin Campbell, Dean Ornish, my father, John McDougall, some of these giants have done to show us and large swaths of this population what it means to eat healthy. And yet, as you and I both know, there are millions and millions of people where there's all kinds of nutrition confusion. They don't know that what they're doing, there's anything that's wrong about it. We got paleo, we got keto, we got carnivore. I mean it's kind of nutty. All the different things that are swirling around out there today. And so what did a typical meal look like for you? Up until what? 30, 35, 40?
Paul Chatlin:
Meat and potatoes, a little bit of vegetables.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, and so did that kind of come and bite you in the at some point?
Paul Chatlin:
Oh, it bit me big. I started getting an understanding of it probably in my early 30s when my cholesterol was elevated so much that in my 30s I started taking a statin. And just a side note on the statins back then. We had three choices, you had Zocor, Lipitor, or Pravastatin. I tried the first two. I tried Zocor first, got the side effects. So I literally woke up one day, could barely, the side effects were-
Rip Esselstyn:
What were those side effects?
Paul Chatlin:
A high muscle enzyme. So it was literally, I could barely walk. So I called the doctor. And I mean, I'm talking about just serious pain taking baby steps, and I had to get off the medication, and within about two, three days I was normal again. He then puts me on Lipitor within seven months, same situation. Takes me off it, puts me on Pravastatin, which is the lightest of the statins, put me on 800, or 80 milligrams of it, which is the highest dosage. And from the mid-30s until 53, he was accepting a baseline of somewhere between 280 and 340, and that was my cholesterol number.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait. Your total cholesterol was 280 milligrams per deciliter to 340?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah, it would bounce around between the two.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's with the statin?
Paul Chatlin:
Oh yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So seriously. So do you know what it was without the statin?
Paul Chatlin:
Higher than 340. But again, never, it was only when I started, I discovered it was like 280 to start, and it stayed that way in my 30s enough so that he put me on the statin. And then again, even with the statin, it would still never get below 280. And there was no other option for another statin. I mean, he had me on the full 80 milligrams of Pravastatin. I couldn't take the other two.
Rip Esselstyn:
So do you know what your LDL, the lethal cholesterol was?
Paul Chatlin:
Back then? No. But I know what it led up to. I mean, it was not good. I will say that when I first got tested, it was, like I said, in my early 50s, the number was 347, I'll never forget it. And the LDL was in the high 100.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Paul, it almost sounds to me like you had familial hypercholesterolemia. Was that ever-
Paul Chatlin:
Never brought up.
Rip Esselstyn:
It wasn't? Okay.
Paul Chatlin:
Doctors, my doctor who's not my doctor anymore, he wanted to keep it always simple for people. And he'd say, "Hey, it's too high, so try the statin, and then why don't you just try some diet cheeses, some egg whites." He would give me a list of some things, skim milk instead of whole milk. And I made all those changes, but it had no really effect on my bottom line of cholesterol numbers.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Well that's because you were still consuming a lot of cholesterol. Okay, so 53, besides having an elevated cholesterol and being on a gorilla dose of a statin med, how did you feel?
Paul Chatlin:
I felt fine. I was, at that time in my life, I was lifting weights every day. I was playing comp, really high competitive tennis. I was busy. I didn't really feel bad, until one day, until that one day when I woke up with severe chest pains.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. And so will you walk us through that morning or that day and what led to you being on that gurney?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah. Well it was waking up one day, and I'm feeling a pain I've never felt before. I could reflect back that my dad and his three brothers all had quadruple bypass in their 50s. Well, I was in my 50s. So I was saying, "Well, they had it, I guess it's my time." Unfortunately, two out of three never made it and one was never the same. And I got to watch my dad cry for four days while he was recovering. That wasn't a pleasant sight. So I wake up every morning, and this lasted for about too long, two months where I'd wake up and feel it, I'd go to bed at night and feel it. And I was dreading waking up, because it would just was consistent. It would not bother me so much during the day. But I started noticing playing tennis that I needed to take a timeout. I couldn't catch my breath. Then I'd catch my breath and keep playing and I continued on.
And then one day I was at meeting for work, and I walked outside, and I literally could not take seven steps without just cold sweats, severe chest pain. I sat down again, it would go away, but that was the moment I said, "I've got to go see my doctor." Listen back 12 years ago, there wasn't as much information as there was today, and I just thought, and I was hoping that it would just go away. But I was doing nothing to help it go away. I just was hoping it would go away. So I went and saw my doctor and he heard a heart murmur he had not heard it before.
Immediately he said, listen, I need you to see my cardiologist. The next day I go see the cardiologist, he does all the tests up to the heart catheter and a heart biopsy. And he finishes up by saying, "Listen, I've been doing cardiology, and I'm a heart expert for 35 years. And my history tells me that you're going to need either a quadruple bypass, or maybe a heart transplant. We're not sure."
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh.
Paul Chatlin:
So I immediately, on the way home, stop at my wife's office.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you turn white when he said that?
Paul Chatlin:
Oh dude, I was just sad. I was just really sad. I was like, "Wow." Both of them. It wasn't like, "Well, you can have a sunny day and a rainy day." It was either bypass surgery or heart transplant. And heart transplant, that really got my attention. But so I drove home, stopped at my wife's office. I walk in, I said, "Hey listen, you and I need to talk." And I explained everything I went through. I didn't want to worry her. I love her so much. It probably, no it wasn't probably, it was a dumb thing to do. I should have had her involved from day one.
So she starts crying in her office. And her boss comes up and says, "What the heck's going on?" Because she's not a crier. And we explained it to him and he says, "Hey, hold on for a second, give me a couple hours," and comes back and he says, "I got you an appointment at the Cleveland Clinic." And it happened to be one day before my heart catheter scheduled at the local Beaumont hospital. So I go to the Cleveland Clinic. I had never been in that place in my life. I was lucky to even get in. They assigned me the one doctor out of the hundreds of heart doctors they have, whose mentor was Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, your father.
Rip Esselstyn:
I heard of that guy, yeah.
Paul Chatlin:
Yes. So we go in, we get the heart catheter, and I could hear him in the background because they put you in this twilight so you could, you're fading in and out. But I hear them go, "Yes." I'm like, "Why are you so happy? Because I'm not happy." He says, "Well you don't need a heart transplant but you need immediate bypass surgery." What's interesting is, I always show people this, because I got it right behind me as a reminder. But my doctor who they assigned me, his title was Director of Heart Failure Intensive Care unit, section of Heart Failure and Cardiac Transplant Medicine.
So he had seen all the information from my local guy, thought that they assigned him to a heart transplant. He was the head of it. And he says, "Okay, well we're ready for the bypass," because they had me all prepped up and here they are wheeling me in, and right at the door. And let me take a half step back. I'm sitting there just before I do the heart catheter, and I do the old, "Hey God, you get me out of this one," because he's got me out of a lot of messes. I said, "I promise. And I mean it, I really promise I will do something to give back. I promise you this time." Because sometimes I'd make a promise I didn't keep it with Him. And so now I'm being wheeled in, stops at the door. He says, "Hey, would you consider a lifestyle change? And maybe you don't need bypass. I've only offered this to one person in 20 years."
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, wait. And you're actually lying down, right?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah, I'm lying down. I'm all prepped up. I just finished the heart catheter. They're wheeling me in for bypass surgery, because I needed it. And he stops at the door and he says, "Yeah, I've only offered this to one person in 20 years, but would you consider a lifestyle change?" I said, "Yes." Now [inaudible 00:22:12] on my part.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah?
Paul Chatlin:
I didn't know what a lifestyle change meant. I had no idea. I just said yes because I didn't want to have bypass surgery. So immediately, now this is 9:30 at night, he takes his cell phone out right there at the doorway, and I hear him say, "Hey Essie, this is [inaudible 00:22:35]. I got somebody I want you to talk to. I'm going to offer up a lifestyle change for him." And I never knew who Dr. Esselstyn was, never heard of him. And he's on the phone with me at 9:00, 9:30 at night. He says, "Go on home and I'll give you a call in the morning." Well, he didn't realize that, hey, I wasn't released until 2:00, but we drove home that night. So we were there for 24 hours straight.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, I have to interrupt you. So you decided to scrap the bypass, go with this lifestyle change that you didn't know what it entailed. Did the surgeon try and come out and talk to you and say, "Hey Paul, this is really probably not a good idea." I mean, did-
Paul Chatlin:
You know what? I will tell you that that was the secondary option that he gave me. But as soon as he handed me the phone and your dad was on the other line saying, "I think we can work something out," I decided I didn't want to talk to the surgeon. I was all in with lifestyle change that I had no idea what it was about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, okay. All right. So you drove home?
Paul Chatlin:
Drove home 8:00 in the morning, your dad calls me, and we spent about 45 minutes on the phone. I immediately get his book. I read it end to end within a day and a half, I then-
Rip Esselstyn:
What did you think, what were your initial thoughts when you were reading it? Were you like, "This is extreme. What have I gotten myself into?"
Paul Chatlin:
Well no, it was really, I wanted to validate what I was about to do. I had no ... I didn't realize it would put a crimp on travel and eating dinner and the trajectory of my family, especially my wife. I was more looking for validation of, "Paul, you just made an impulsive decision, and oh it made sense. It was a good decision, because he gave you all the proof in the world as to why a lifestyle change is important." So when I finished the book, I spent four hours at Whole Foods, I'll never forget it, reading labels and learning, "Oh my God, no wonder why I'm so bad off, oils in everything." So that was the day I got rid of everything out of my pantry that wasn't healthy, and sectioned half from my wife, half from me. And then boom, went to Whole Foods and filled it back up with fruits and vegetables, beans and whole grains.
And my journey began. But it really didn't start that day, because I was still really sick. It wasn't just that I had a 100% block in my right artery. I also had an enlarged heart through all the exercise and genetics, probably. I also had leaky valves. I had [inaudible 00:25:19] of the right side of the aorta, along with a heart murmur, and a left bundled branch block. So I was a mess. So they really wanted to shrink that heart. And the way they thought they'd do it, is by putting me on sleeping medicine, serious double doses of it. And for the next 60 days, I was sleeping 16 hours a day. And then the other eight hours, I was trying to learn how to cook.
Because I knew my life was changing, and How To Prevent And Reverse Heart Disease gave me some cooking ideas. And back then, think about 11 years ago, there was one or two cookbooks, so there wasn't much out there. So here I was every day going, "Man, I'm eating this food, I just don't really like, what did I do?" And then all of a sudden after about [inaudible 00:26:08] days, my taste buds started to change. Now I can't tell everybody that, "Oh, I went from, 'I don't like vegetables,' to, 'I love vegetables.'" No, I went from, "I don't like vegetables," to, "I could eat this, I could do this." So that was cool to watch your taste buds change. And then at about the, I don't know, 14th through 20th day, my angina went away. And I'm like, "Wow." I remember waking up one day without the pain, and I thought to myself, "Wow, this stuff really worked."
Rip Esselstyn:
So that took how long? Two weeks for the angina to go away?
Paul Chatlin:
Two weeks to two and a half weeks. So everything was starting to line up, and then all of a sudden I started looking, I was power lifting during those early 50s with my son. And I was about 235 pounds. And all of a sudden, whoa, the weight was starting to just drop off me. And it's been nice because I'm at about 165, 170 and I've carried that weight now for 11 years, a lot less weight. And the beneficiaries are my knees, my ankles, my hips.
And then the other thing I love about it, is the recovery as you Rip, is amazing. I literally did 30 [inaudible 00:27:28] yesterday. I feel fine today. And whatever I do, I'm a bike rider now, a walker. And whatever I do, the next day I feel great. But I kept thinking about the give-back portion of it. And I went to your mom and dad's cooking class, the half day class. When I got home, I took their invoice and I expensed it through Blue Cross Blue Shield, and I was denied. And we're talking about $700. And I thought to myself, "They'll cut a check for 120,000 for bypass but not refund me $700." I said, "Oh my God, that's a sign from God. This is my mission." So I started-
Rip Esselstyn:
So let me ask you this, are you working right now? Are you retired?
Paul Chatlin:
No, I still own a telecommunication consulting firm. I don't work much, but I'm still involved, and I'm still putting in time, hard time, and good hard time, healthy good hard time with PBNSG.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it.
Paul Chatlin:
So-
Rip Esselstyn:
Anyway, so you were like, "Oh my God, this is a sign, they're not going to reimburse this $700?"
Paul Chatlin:
I'm going after Blue Cross Blue Shield, I'm going to get a pay code established. So the way it works, you've got to keep on appealing, going up a level, appealing, get to about the seventh layer, and they still denied me. But they gave me an explanation on my appeal, saying that you have to work with the Michigan legislature to have them produce and create a pay code. And I thought, "Well, that's, I guess it wasn't a sign, because I'm not going to do that." I didn't want to drive an hour and a half and try and convince all these dairy farmers to go plant-based, or understand the benefits of it. So instead I said, "You know what I'll do is I'll ... This thing worked for me and there's a lot of heart disease." So I put a $20 ad in the paper, and within two days, I left my phone number.
I just said, it was a simple ad. It said, "I was able to stop my heart disease through a whole-food plant-based. If you'd like to know about it, I'm inviting you to my house, first 20 people." And then two days I had 20 people signed up, and they all came over the house. What was cool about it, was of the 20, 16 of them are still involved with PBNSG. So I thought, "Well, let's do that again." I waited another month, did it again, within two more days, 20 more people showed up. I said, "Oh my goodness, that's the sign." So then I wanted to go to a bigger place, but I realized I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy, I'm nobody special.
And I needed to have a doctor by my side. So I called the heads of three hospitals, they gave me three names of lifestyle cardiologists, functioning cardiologists. And Dr. Joel Kahn was one of them. I had never met the guy in my life, never heard about him. But I figured since his name was repeated three times, I'd meet him first. And after I was done, I realized he was a good spokesperson, good doctor to join me in this journey. We had a very first meeting, we had had room for 80 people, we had 123 people in the first meeting.
And then you know how things are, you go to a second meeting, the next month it would drop off. But we actually had 141 people. So we scheduled a third meeting, and two days before the third meeting, Beaumont Hospital kicks us out. Why did they kick us out? Well, they said that we had too many people in a small room. There's a fire concern. But they had a bigger auditorium, they just chose not to give it to us. And the real reason was they were promoting Standard American Diet and we were whole-food plant-based. So I was on a major scramble to find a place. I called churches, synagogues, and then I called the Birmingham School system, and Rip, you've spoken there many a time. And they opened up their hearts and their doors to us, and we did our live meetings for almost nine years there. I'll always be in deep gratitude to them. They were very good and kind to me.
Rip Esselstyn:
So throughout this journey, where has your wife been on it? Because you said in the beginning you had your side of the fridge, and her side of the fridge. Is that still how it is today?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah, it is. I always tell people, it's a interesting story. First, I'm one of the lucky ones. Man, I'm still deeply in love with my wife of 24 years. She's my best buddy, and she has put up with everything I've had to go through for the last 24 years. And if you look at her family history, her mom's still around, and she's 78. Her mom's mom lived to 98. So the women in that family, they could eat whatever they want, because they outlive most people. So I was never going to sit there ... And she's plant-aware, she eats a little healthier. But that's one of those just mutual respect. It would be great if her and I were both whole-food, it would be. But it doesn't take anything away from us or her, that we just respectfully do our own thing when it comes to food.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, that's pretty special. Because we deal with a lot of people, and it's a husband and wife, and it's a house divided, right?
Paul Chatlin:
[inaudible 00:33:07].
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, so I just want to veer off what we were talking about for a second. So what advice would you give for a husband and wife team, where the husband or the wife has no interest, and it's very upsetting to the other member?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah, well it first starts with just mutual adult respect. You married this person for good or bad. And it doesn't mean you can only just enjoy the good time there. Life is full of some bad. So if somebody doesn't accept the way you look at things, just remember why you married this person, why you love this person. At the end of the day, I mean, what you do is you find a happy medium. So for example, when I make my vegetables, and if she wants to have fish and/or chicken, she'll make that portion, and then she can add it into the vegetables. And we just find ways to work together. It starts with the fact that I'm not drawing lines in the sand that can't be crossed, excuse me. And if they are crossed, and it's over. No, I still love her and she's still my best friend. And doesn't mean we always have to agree on everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. I think that's huge. And I think you're a lot bigger than I am like that. For example, I don't like cheese in our house. I don't like meat in our house. I don't like the smell of it. I don't want it lingering anywhere in the house. And it's something that is so strong, that if we have guests, it's like, "I mean you're more than welcome to stay here, but listen, there's some ground rules. We don't allow meat in the house." I mean everything we know about what it does, obviously for our health, for the planet, being kind to the animals. So I see how you and your wife, you're making it work, but in some relationships, it's like, "This is something I can't see past." I mean, once that bell has been rung, you can't un-ring it. And it's a reminder every day of death, harmfulness to the environment, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, I'm just, I applaud you for being able to make that work. I really do.
Paul Chatlin:
Well, being able to compartmentalize things, is, I don't want to say, a strength, but it's something I work on every day. Because if I let, I'm an emotional person, I really am. And there's a lot of things that bother me at times. And I have to learn how to, I've learned how to put it in its own compartment. So when friends and family come over, they could bring whatever. I'm not going to go buy the stuff necessarily. I would for Tracy's family. But I'm saying that I just become numb to that. It just doesn't bother me. But you hit upon something that I am, which is beyond whole-food plant-based, I'm a plant-animal person, first and foremost, especially the planet. And I come to realize over years, that we got to get the humans right first, because we're too darn selfish. And if we got the humans, then the planet has a chance, animals have a chance. But it has to go humans, plant, animals. As opposed to plant, animals, human, because we'll just ruin things. We're ruining things. That's what we're doing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, speaking of your wife, I see behind you on that board, PC heart TC.
Paul Chatlin:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's nice. That's really nice.
Paul Chatlin:
Hey, she is, it's kind of neat when you ... I've said I had three true loves. I told you this earlier, my mom, my dog who just passed away last week, and my wife. Now I just have my wife, and I covet the fact that I'm happily married, that we were able to be with each other and then be away from each other. Because we've got grandkids now, she watches them quite a bit. But it starts with just, she's my friend, and I love her. And I don't want to lose that. I don't ever want to lose her.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So you've been doing this PBNSG, this amazing support group now since 2013, '14. And tell me a little bit about how it's grown over the years?
Paul Chatlin:
Well, it has changed, but initially it was just a heart disease group, honestly, honoring your father. Because I, to this day, and it's been 11 years, still can't believe it's the food. I went from can't walk to 20 mile bike riding, six mile walking. I would say heavy weightlifting, but that's a lie. It's light weightlifting because I'm older. The point is that it's like I just had a change in my diet. So if that's all it was, then I needed the world to know. I know it was crazy, because here I am, 11 years later and the world still doesn't know. So I've reduced it. I just want the nation to know, maybe I just want people in Michigan. I don't know, I just, it's amazing and I hope we get into it. Some of the initiatives I've tried and failed. Again, I'm able to compartmentalize it. So I don't think about how the medical schools aren't teaching it, the hospitals aren't giving it, and how doctors are telling it.
So I can live with that. I don't like it, but I can live with it. But the point is that I just wanted to honor your dad, and what his ideas were. Because I still can't believe it's the food. So it started as a heart disease group, and about three, four years in, and by the way everybody, I want everyone to know this, the very first speaker for PBNSG was Rip Esselstyn. And man, we had fun, and he's come many a time to give a talk, and it's electrifying. Not only him but the audience. We used to get 500 to a 1,000 people in seats. It was just the most unique feeling I've ever felt in business, I guess, I would say. And maybe personally at times.
But there was a moment where I wanted to morph into animals and planet. But as I mentioned, we got to get the humans right. So we actually grew into diabetes, obesity. And so that was part one of who we were. We'd have live meetings every single month, and then we'd have culinary classes once or twice a month, where anybody could join. Then we started doing something called small groups, and we got up to about 54 small groups around the country, and we were growing.
And then unfortunately, was about three years ago, COVID hit and I found out about COVID in February. And immediately we had to shut all of the things that we did and we love doing down. So we had 100 volunteers. We had to stop that, we had to stop all of our live events. We did a hard pivot and we had to go virtual. And I'm really proud of the fact that we're still in business, unlike many other people. We have never once gotten that big donation. Boy, I would be so much fun if I could find one donor to give me $50,000. That's not even that much. But we've been able to stay in existence, through COVID, on our membership, which is a whopping 20 bucks a month. I think it's on sale right now for a dollar for three months to try us. I know that we're the only game in town right now to help people, but we are now virtual. But we are still doing one or two speaker events, one or two culinary events.
Unfortunately the small groups had to stop, but we've changed that and we now have 15 specific support groups. So if you have heart disease, when we meet once a month, you could be with all people who have heart disease. If you have diabetes, obesity, a single parent, workout, we've got a whole list of things. You could find all of that on our website and free advertisement here, www.pbnsg.org. So here we are today, we do all virtual events and we just load you up. We've got some five, six, seven events plus a free community event every single month. So we're still knocking on the doors. We're still out there working.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, you are. It's a beautiful thing. And so you mentioned you were lying on that gurney, and you were like, "God, help me out here, and I will give back." So have you always been somebody that gave back, or is this something that really was kind of a new foray for you? And how has it fed your soul?
Paul Chatlin:
Well, the give-back part, in college, I was four credits shy of a social worker's degree. So I always liked helping people. Of course when they offered me the job, and I'll never forget, they said, "Well ..." I was up in Ingham County at Michigan State University, and I was working, I spent a summer at the juvenile detention home. And at the end of the tenure there, the guy who was running it says, "Hey, I'd like to offer you a job. It's $8,000 a year, plus you could stay here at the juvenile home and sleep here." And I looked at him, I said, "$8,000 a year?" So I realized I better knock off a few other classes, end up getting my business degree, so I could start at Land O'Lakes Butter Company for 14,000 a year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that's kind of ironic?
Paul Chatlin:
Well, yeah it is. I always laugh at that because, Rip, I don't tell this to many people, but I spent one year at Land O'Lakes, where I was the guy who would come home with the five pound blocks of cheese, and eat the extra sharp cheddar during the whole weekend. Because I didn't know any more, I just liked how it tasted. And then I quit that job to go work at Stouffer's Food Company when they were introducing all their red box Stouffer's foods. And then their chocolate chip cookies from Nestle, and their Lean Cuisine line, which was so full of salt. So I don't think I paid for a dinner for a year. I was just eating their foods all the time. But what a great way to help my cholesterol get higher and higher, huh?
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally. Yeah, how has it felt for you? Because I know how much you have poured your heart and soul and sweat and tears into PBNSG. I mean, were you like, "Yes, this ..." And I know you're always looking to do more and more, but let's look at the silver lining here. What you were able to create, develop, the number of lives you were able to help. I mean, how good did that feel?
Paul Chatlin:
Well, because we are brothers, and we always talk our truths, it's always rewarding to touch a life and change a course. I mean, how can you not feel good when somebody will come up to you and say, "Thank you for saving my life." And I've heard this just like people have with you, your father, all the people that you surround yourself with, you hear it. But I got to admit, maybe I'm just different. I appreciate when they say that to me. But saying that, I really, and again, this is my being just naive, I wanted the world to know the benefits of nutrition before pills or procedures. So I set upon myself with a couple huge initiatives over these years.
One was on the request of Wayne State Medical School, they asked us to create a curriculum that would include nutrition. Now I didn't ask them, they asked us. So we spent a year and a half. We ended up not really creating a direct curriculum, but rather four to six items of the nine systems of the body. Because halfway through it, they changed how they teach their young, first, you're medical students. We have so many people involved, Michael Clapper, Brenda Davis. But more importantly, I had 14 first and second year medical students from around the state of Michigan collaborating. And every time we'd get together, every month, I was buying 16 people dinner. The cost was crazy, because I didn't have it. But again, everyone should know I put aside about a 100,000 to help feed, PBNSG because I thought I would've had to pay it anyway. So I'll just feed it, and try and improve people's health by education. So when we finally presented it to Wayne State, they turned it down.
They just couldn't bring themselves to do it. Now they turned it down. We then applied, waited three more years, and they finally accepted it. So now I believe they're the only medical school that has their first and second year medical students, again, it's not a nutrition curriculum, but it's infiltrated into their education. So they may get a little bit more nutritional education than most medical schools. So that was a plus. And that felt great.
And then I had an opportunity where General Motors reached out and wanted, they had a problem with, their retirees were all getting sick and the cost of medical insurance to General Motors was just, I think, the second or the third highest expense they had. So they called me and said, "Hey, let's create a program that you could present to the retirees." And I thought, "Oh my goodness, this is that moment where all the people involved with whole-food, plant-based will benefit. Because if General Motors will take on this program, the whole world will take this program on." So then I got Dr. Neal Barnard and Dr. Joel Fuhrman created a beautiful presentation, along with Dr. Breakey, and Dr. [inaudible 00:47:45], doctors locally here. We presented it to General Motors at their board level. And at the end they turned it down. So I've had a few-
Rip Esselstyn:
Did they say why?
Paul Chatlin:
They said they weren't quite ready for this. So again, when you put your heart ... That, like I said, I appreciate when somebody says, "Thank you for helping save my life," But it's those things that I was hoping for. So I don't look at me being any type of a failure per se, but I had lofty goals and I still do. And that's why I keep doing this with the hope someday that something huge will happen, that more people will know about it. Again, my position is I just want people to know about it. If you know about it and choose not to do it, that's on you. But Rip, it's amazing, as you look back, and you and I have been doing this for about the same time, you probably more because you got your dad, but do we have a lot more plant-based restaurants? Not really.
Is it being taught in medical schools? Not at all. Is it offered at the hospital level? No, not really. Our doctors ... Glass half-empty, glass half-full, I'm a half-full person. Except the reality is it hasn't in 11 years done enough and COVID help any of us. So with that all being said, I am going to keep grinding it out, and I'm hoping that I'll be announcing something big. A possible up-and-coming partnership, merger or acquisition. I don't know. Everyone will find out soon enough, with a organization called Rochester Lifestyle Medicine Institute, RLMI run by Ted Barnett, Dr. Ted Barnett. So that's an example of what I believe needs to take place, where we start merging, working together, partnering together. You and I partner all the time, Rip, and we are going to continue. But we need to keep growing instead of not growing. And that COVID hurt us all.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. It's interesting, I kind of look at it a little differently. I see Kaiser Permanente that they put out a white paper to their 16,000 physicians saying, "Listen, we want the first course of action, the people that come into your office that are hypertensive, elevated cholesterol levels, overweight, pre-diabetic to be whole-food, plant-based diet. The research is definitive." Columbus Batiste, you know Columbus, right?
Paul Chatlin:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I see, as we talked about before we went live, I see the number of people that are now self-proclaimed plant-based/vegans. I see the amount of celebrities, the amount of documentaries and books that are being written on the subject. So to me, this society is definitely starting to flip, and I could not be more encouraged by what's going on. And so-
Paul Chatlin:
Just a little one thing on that. First, that Kaiser wrote the paper, but I got a bunch of buddies who work for Kaiser, and a paper is just words. The fact is they're not being forced to talk about it. They strongly suggest they talk about it. But that's not even the point. The point is I'm 64, so my timeline is different than your timeline. So yes, I see where ACLM's numbers are huge, and they're growing. And I saw that just recently the Senate passed something that may be that [inaudible 00:51:29] moment where they're going to put money into it to teach a 100,000 doctors nutrition. And that that's a big thing. That could be a really big thing.
And I'm jealous and I admire the fact that these people did that. So I agree with you. There are some things that are happening. But again, the fact that I'm 64, and I got ants in my pants, and a touch of OCD, I want it now. But Rip, you'll get a kick out of this. I'm a lucky man. I've had the opportunity to be call your dad my friend, Colin Campbell my friend, John McDougall, I just spoke to the other day, my friend. When I think I have it bad, just I think about John McDougall, your dad, and T. Colin Campbell.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right?
Paul Chatlin:
Think how hard it's been for them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep.
Paul Chatlin:
So that kind of squashes me right there. That's when I compartmentalize, I stop being a baby about it. There is improvement. And I do see what you're saying, and I agree with you. I want it done now, okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, you're 64 but the good news is you're still a spring piece of kale. You are still very young in the grand scheme of things. Tell me, PBNSG 501(c)3 nonprofit, right?
Paul Chatlin:
501(c)3 nonprofit.
Rip Esselstyn:
So if people want to donate, if they want to give, if they want to help this amazing organization out, what do you recommend? Where should they go? What should they do?
Paul Chatlin:
Here I'm going to write something out right here, if you want to donate, please. I just made that. All right. If any donations, just go to our website, www.pbnsg.org. And any donation is a beautiful donation, I thank you ahead of time. But also consider joining our membership. We're not asking for a whole lot. I think, like I said, it's on sale for the rest of this year to try us out. And it's like, [inaudible 00:53:34], if you try us, you'll love us. We're going to educate you. We're going to bring all the speakers in. Rip, you're going to be kicking off 2023 for us.
Rip Esselstyn:
January 5th.
Paul Chatlin:
Yep, thank you my friend, as always, because the one thing I love about the Esselstyns, many things I love, but they've never said no to me. And I appreciate that so much, the support they've given me. So just go to our website, and become a member. Make a small donation. If you want to make a big one, that's cool too. But I'm just a lucky man, Rip. I always feel that way.
Rip Esselstyn:
So tell me what happened to you a couple months ago?
Paul Chatlin:
Well, that was a moment. Okay, so here I am down in Florida. And it, I'm going for a walk, and I'm like, "Wow, something felt really weird." And I just was like, "Wow, it almost felt like angina again." And this is way late in May, and we were about ready to come back to Michigan. So I come back to Michigan, and it was still feeling that way once a day. It wasn't really strong like it was 11 years prior. But all of a sudden it started getting worse and worse. And I said, "Well, I'll just, heck, I'm not even going to eat potatoes. I'll just eat greens all day. I know how to do this." So I spent the next, oh man, it was like two and a half months, and it just getting worse. And got to a point where I couldn't even move a grocery cart without the pain coming in. It was happening seven times a day.
Rip Esselstyn:
And where is the pain coming in is the chest, is it [inaudible 00:55:11]-
Paul Chatlin:
It's right in the chest. Man, it's like it hits you in the chest. And then I just have to close my eyes and wait five minutes, wherever I am, and just do some yoga breathing, Lamaze breathing, just slow. And then, I tried to excuse myself where I could sit down for five minutes.
Rip Esselstyn:
But is it a heat, is it like a rubber bands being stretched?
Paul Chatlin:
No, it's like a tightness, an immediate chest tightness.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Paul Chatlin:
Obviously at that point, my wife knew about, my friends, knew about. Everyone's saying, "Paul, go to emergency right away. Go to emergency." I'm like, "Wait a second you guys." I said, "I just don't want to go some stranger. I'll go back to the Cleveland Clinic, because that's where my cardiologist is." Unfortunately, you just can't call and show up unless it's an emergency. I figured as long as I don't do a whole lot of moving, it's not the engine that doesn't come back. It's like every time I walked, or walked a little faster, it would hit me. So I took the whole summer off, just kind of did nothing. And by the way, a side note, I watched more TV this summer than I've watched in the last 30 years combined. I don't know how people can do it. I mean seriously. I was reading and then watching TV, and I wasn't doing anything. And then the whole time I couldn't work out, couldn't do anything. I felt like a total sponge.
But I had to line up the dates because when I go to the Cleveland Clinic, they do a bunch of tests before another [inaudible 00:56:43] catheter. So it took them four weeks to schedule everything lined up. So literally for four or five weeks, I just laid on the couch, or the bed, and did nothing. And oh my God, for a person like me, miserable. That, I was like, "Take me, do anything you can to me. I can't live my life like that." So about, it's been like five, six weeks. I go into the Cleveland Clinic, they do another heart catheter. And what they found out was my LAD was 99% blocked, 99.
Rip Esselstyn:
And for people that don't know, that's the left anterior descending artery.
Paul Chatlin:
Right? AKA, widow-maker. And my doctor, who does have a small sense of humor, about that much. He says, "Hey, if we were to schedule about two more weeks, I wouldn't have to show up." So I was lucky again, because they were able to put a stent in me. And immediately I started feeling better. But I felt better physically, mentally, I wasn't in a good place. I've never been a depressed person. I felt depressed because I thought to myself, "Hey, I was heart attack-proof. Dr. Esselstyn said I'm heart attack proof. I still have a 100% block of my right artery that's still there, but I have all these little collateral arteries supporting me. And how could this be?" So then when we started doing a deeper dive, it looked, I discovered that my lipoprotein (a), Lp (a) was over 300.
And it turns out it should be less than 30. And it's like a genetic predisposition for this plaque making factory called Paul that I can't do much about. Now to know me, I did some research, did some studying, and I'm doing a self-experiment because right now I found out that there is some studies being done on Lp (a). And the hope is that they do. I volunteer for a couple of test trials of it. And if they do the testing and do the study, studies are tough, because it costs a lot of money.
But if they do it, my doctors believe that I'm about three to five years away from a pill to help me get better. But in the meantime, I read, I shared my story to the world and my beautiful members. A bunch of them sent me some articles. And one of them was, it said, Rip was a Dr. Pauling. He did a study on Lp (a) that goes back many years that was sent to me. So I am doing a self-study. I got a lipid panel done a couple weeks ago again. And then I started taking, here I'll show everybody 600, 6,000 milligrams of in combination, let's marry them together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Vitamin C and-
Paul Chatlin:
Vitamin C and Lysine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Lysine? Yeah.
Paul Chatlin:
So he did that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Was this Linus Pauling?
Paul Chatlin:
Yes. So in the article, it was somebody did this experiment on themselves and they were able to drop it. So I'm going to go six weeks taking 6,000 of each every day. If I see a change, I'll tell the world, and then I'll add a multivitamin, and maybe I'll play around with Niacin. Because that's kind of the elixir that this person did. But the first step was to try the Vitamin C heavy dosage and Lysine-
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you still on any kind of statins or-
Paul Chatlin:
I am. I still am on Repatha. I inject that into my stomach twice a month. And a quarter of Crestor every third day. But the good news is my cholesterol is at 105 with my LDL at 43.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so even, so for those that are wondering, so you're eating whole-food, plant-based-
Paul Chatlin:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
... since 2014, or whatever, when you had your event, or you were going to be rolled into surgery. But even with that, you're saying because of that genetic predisposition with the Lp (a), you still had some plaque buildup in that left anterior descending, is that correct?
Paul Chatlin:
Oh yeah. It was filled, yeah. And I shared a little bit about how depressed I felt. I mean, it's like I feel helpless, so I'm trying to do something. But I also know that until I got my arms around this thing, it could happen again a year from now, three years from. I'm not going to let it affect me day to day, but it's in the back of my mind. This is something that I'm having a tough time compartmentalizing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. So had the stent in the left interior descending, you said you had a 100% blockage in one of your right coronary arteries, right?
Paul Chatlin:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then back in the day you had a 100% on the right, and then you said you had two that were 70% blocked? Was one of those the LAD?
Paul Chatlin:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. So that LAD increased about what, 29%?
Paul Chatlin:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. Well, so I mean the one that's 100%, you had nothing done there, right? You just were relying on the collateral vessels, right?
Paul Chatlin:
That's correct.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Okay. Well, it sounds to me like you're doing everything right, right now.
Paul Chatlin:
Well, and I would say to everybody, it's like, "Hey, one thing I noticed was my heart shrunk." I don't have in enlarged heart, I don't have leaky valves. So whole-food plant-based works. It's just that sometimes, you need the best of both worlds, because genetics does play a part. And I'm thankful that I got this stent, because I got my life back. Now trying to get back into shape, that's been a little bit tougher. But I'm out there grinding, because that's what I am. I'm a grinder.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, you are. Paul, it is truly to me, spectacular how you just decided to give back and make it happen. You have been so committed to PDNSG, and like you just said, keep grinding. I'm telling you, good things happen to those that don't give up, and keep grinding. Especially when you believe in what you're doing. And I know that you do. And it's been a deposit that you have made that has truly affected your soul to the betterment. I think we all know that.
Paul Chatlin:
Well, thank you. And like I said, I'm the lucky one. I mean, how often can you say you could help people, and you could help yourself, and you could live a healthy life? And that's what I'm living right now, and I get to meet some really nice people along the way, so I'm a pretty lucky guy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. All right. Again, pbnsg.org. Paul Chatlin, you're doing wonderful things. Thanks for what you're doing, and I will see you, if not before, January 5th, 2023.
Paul Chatlin:
Thank you my friend. As always you're always there for me. I really appreciate that. And anything I could do, as you know, I'm here for you too.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Hey, hit me up, Plantstrong.
Paul Chatlin:
Plantstrong.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you'd like to learn more about the work of PBNSG or support them with membership or a donation, visit pbnsg.org. I've put a link to them in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening, supporting, and sharing this podcast. Be sure to click that plus button in your app to follow the show and never miss an episode. And just like Paul, always keep it Plantstrong.
Thank you for listening to the Plantstrong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review, and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. The Plantstrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous, truth-seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
