#317: Kathy Stevens: Founder of Catskill Animal Sanctuary on Retirement and a Legacy of Love

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Kathy Stevens Retires from Catskill Animal Sanctuary: A Legacy of Love and Leadership

For more than two decades, Kathy Stevens has been a guiding light in animal welfare. In 2001, she left her career as a high school English teacher and founded Catskill Animal Sanctuary in New York’s Hudson Valley—a haven for farmed animals and a beacon of hope for humans seeking a more compassionate way of living.

Now, as Kathy prepares for retirement, she joined Rip on the to reflect on her journey, the sanctuary’s impact, and her vision for the future of animal sanctuaries in a changing world.

How Catskill Animal Sanctuary Began

Kathy’s dream was simple but bold: create a safe refuge for farmed animals while educating the public about the power of empathy, kindness, and plant-based living. Since its founding in 2001, Catskill Animal Sanctuary has:

Rescued thousands of farmed animals from abuse and neglect
Welcomed visitors from around the world to connect with animals face-to-face
Inspired countless people to embrace a plant-based lifestyle for the sake of animals, their health, and the planet

Leading With Love, Not Judgment

In a movement sometimes clouded by anger or blame, Kathy pioneered a new approach—leading with love. At Catskill, everyone is welcome, no matter their background or where they are on their journey. Through compassion and connection, the sanctuary has sparked meaningful change that reaches far beyond its barnyard.

Lessons From the Animals

During her conversation with Rip, Kathy shares some of the most powerful lessons she’s learned from Catskill’s residents—particularly a rescued ram named Rambo, whose courage and empathy profoundly shaped her perspective. These stories highlight the sanctuary’s deeper mission: not just to save animals, but to let them teach us about resilience, forgiveness, and unconditional love.

The Future of Catskill Animal Sanctuary

As Kathy steps down from her role as executive director, she reflects on both the challenges and opportunities facing sanctuaries today—climate change, funding struggles, and the need to reach new generations. Yet she is optimistic about the future, confident that Catskill will continue to thrive under new leadership while staying true to its mission of empathy and education.

How You Can Support Catskill Animal Sanctuary

Kathy encourages everyone to play a role in building a more compassionate world. You can:

Volunteer your time at the sanctuary
Visit Catskill and bring friends and family to connect with animals directly
Donate to support ongoing rescue and education efforts
Share Kathy’s story to inspire others to live with kindness

Every action helps keep Kathy’s vision alive and ensures that Catskill continues to be a sanctuary for animals—and for people seeking hope and transformation.

Episode Resources:

Watch the Episode on YouTube

Donate and Learn More about Catskill Animal Sanctuary

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Full Episode Transcription via AI Transcription Service

I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast.

Introduction to Kathy Stevens

[0:05] For over 20 years, Kathy Stevens has rescued animals, inspired people, and she has built one of the most beloved sanctuaries in the world. As she steps away from her role at Catskill Animal Sanctuary, she's sharing the story of how it all began and the lessons that she'll be carrying forward. This is a conversation about compassion, courage, and leading with love. That's coming up right after these words from PLANTSTRONG.

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[1:53] This week, I am honored to sit down with someone who's been leading with love for over two decades. Her name is Kathy Stevens, and she is the founder of Catskill Animal Sanctuary. In 2001, Kathy walked away from the classroom and ran straight towards the vision, a safe haven for farm animals that was built on empathy, education, and the power of plant-based living. Since then, she has rescued thousands, inspired countless humans, and created a sanctuary that's as much about people as it is about the animals. Now as she prepares to retire, Kathy reflects on her journey, the lessons learned from her four-legged teachers, and her hopes for the sanctuary's future. Here to share that legacy of love is the one and only Kathy Stevens.

[2:53] Kathy Stevens, you are one of my favorite people on the planet. You really are. Something about your energy, your zest for life, your ethos, it is aligned with me. Yeah, we are aligned because I could say the absolute same thing about you, Richard. Richard Edselstyn. Easy there, Kathleen.

[3:24] All right. So, hey, before we dive into all the wonderful things happening at the Catskill Animal Sanctuary, where are you right now? Are you at the CAS? Yes. I'm at my house, which is on the grounds of the sanctuary, and it is another rainy day here. So it's actually cold. I have on long sleeves and I have a little blanket over my legs. It's cold and raw. It is not a June day. Well, you know, I was talking to a buddy of mine that lives in the area and he said there's been a lot of rain the last couple of weeks. Have you found that to be the case where you are? Oh, absolutely. It's been gray and foggy and cold. And like people have been wearing sweatshirts and sweaters. It's very strange. And, you know, we all know it's just going to get stranger and stranger. And speaking of strange, and I know we're going to, this is one of the things that I want to talk to you about here, but not in the beginning of this conversation. Next week, I'm going to be up at our farm. And I looked at the weather. And next Monday, it's going to be 97 degrees.

[4:41] 97. Which, of course, means 100. Right. Right. Feels like 180. Wow. Yeah, I know. I know. So let's take a step back, Kathy, okay? So for those listeners who weren't able to listen in to episode 195, when we talked about the Catskill Animal Sanctuary and that you started in 2001 on 80 acres, give us give the listener that doesn't know who you are and what you started an overview of your vision and your mission at CAS, Okay, happy to. So we are in the Hudson Valley in New York, not so far from your farm, your parents' farm, Rip.

[5:35] And we exist to rescue farmed animals, 11 species of farmed animals, but also to inspire humanity toward plant-based living as the lifestyle that's kindest for all of us. The animals, our bodies, our psyches, and the planet. That's what we do, and we've been doing it for almost 25 years. Incredible. And this year, it's got to be a bittersweet year for you. And the reason why I say that is because you're going to be passing on the baton.

[6:15] To somebody else after 20 years. And I want to know, like, who in the world is going to be 25? Who in the world is going to be filling those magnificent big shoes of yours? Oh, my goodness, Rip. Is there such a thing as new leadership? You only do. Well, we had some absolutely terrific candidates just from all over the country, of course, and a couple from outside the country. And I can't say yet because we've narrowed it down to two people. And it's very interesting. They are both extraordinary leaders, very different. So we're just trying to wrap our minds around who would be the better choice in what is such a different world than it was 25 years ago when we started. Mm-hmm.

Leadership Transition at CAS

[7:23] Is this something where those two candidates, have they both been to CAS and have you had a chance to kind of hang with them and get to know them a little more intimately? One has and one will be coming. We're several rounds in at this point. And so the last step will be for this one of the two people to come. And ultimately, who's making this decision? Is there a board? Is it you? Is it a combination? There's a board and a search committee. And collectively, we're making the decision, and I'm, of course, part of it. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, the good news is it sounds like you've done your due diligence, and whichever way you go, it'll probably be the right decision. Right? Let's hope. I think it will. I honestly think that there's no bad choice. There's a fair amount of consensus on, you know, getting the list from five to four to three down to these two. So that was nice. That, to me, signaled that these two really were the top two because everybody was in agreement about that. So we're pretty excited.

[8:40] So for over 25 years, you have successfully run one of the most incredible animal sanctuaries in the United States. And I'd love for us to just get your reflections, right? First of all, what it meant, and this was an important part of your organization, what it meant to lead with love. Right.

[9:10] Well, I was very surprised when we first opened our doors about the anger within the animal rights movement as a whole. A lot of rage, a lot of judgment, a lot of finger pointing. And in the beginning, we visited. Sanctuaries were a relatively new concept back in 2000 when we were doing our due diligence. But there were some, and some were well-established, most especially Farm Sanctuary and Watkins Glen.

Leading with Love

[9:54] And I felt sort of an intolerance for people who ate animals, for carnivores. And I was somebody who grew up on a farm in Virginia, and we had a freezer full of beef. And I probably, I think it's probably true that I never ate a meal, a single meal that didn't have meat or dairy back then. And so, it seemed to me, you know, coming from a background, I was a high school English teacher, and my secret mission as I talk about it was beyond encouraging students to become better writers, better speakers, better thinkers. My secret mission was to have them become, these high school juniors and seniors, better people, greater people, and more compassionate people. And so I did that. I tried to do that through the literature we picked and the activities we did, but also always through encouragement and encouragement.

[11:08] So I felt like the sanctuary movement, as part of the bigger animal rights movement, but also the animal rights movement, needed a new model that said, of course you eat meat. Of course you do. It's a meat-based culture. It's a meat and dairy-based culture. It's in your face. It's part of our habit. It's our custom. It's what's familiar. It's what's available at the grocery store. and in restaurants. And so we just tried to change the model and be actively welcoming of all people. And I remember the most difficult tour I ever gave was to a big group who came here with a man who manufactured components of slaughterhouses.

[12:06] And he talked about it throughout the tour. And that was a tough one. But we wound up crying together and holding hands as we were ending the tour. He had a lot of, he'd been carrying a lot, a lot, a lot of guilt. So that's a very long winded answer. But what what leading with love has been about is the understanding that in a in a meat and dairy centric culture.

[12:42] You're not going to get anywhere unless everyone feels welcomed and embraced and free to say, I don't know what to do or where to start. So that's at the root of it. That's at the root of it. And then, of course, it also applies to the animals who come down the driveway so psychologically traumatized that you've got to let them lead the way that they have to tell you how they want to heal. So one of our expressions is let each one heal in their own way, at their own pace, on their own terms. Some animals can't stand eye contact. Some animals can't, will never let you get within, beyond a certain distance to them. So it's also about that. And it's also about how we have always tried, tried to interact internally with each other. Respectful disagreement and loving disagreement. And, you know, have we always succeeded? No, we have not. But we've always made the effort to have love underpin every interaction.

Lessons from Rambo

[14:11] That's really wonderful. And imagine what a better United States world we would have if that was kind of the theme, right? If we all would lead with love and have that kind of empathy and understanding. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Good for you for creating that kind of a culture. Well, trying. I mean, we've had, I would say that the biggest mistake I've made in a quarter century is that it took me a long time to understand that this work attracts a lot of broken people, people who've been abused, ignored, marginalized, what have you, and that they bring all that stuff with them. And there have been phases in our history where we've had a few too many of those people, and they have impacted us terribly.

[15:19] And so I finally learned well into our history that if somebody says, I have given up on human beings, do not hire them. Do not hire them. No matter their skills, no matter what else they bring to the table, if what they feel toward humanity is hatred, it's going to come out in some way that's just not going to work for an organization. Yeah.

[15:57] So, yeah, that's quite a lesson. And let me ask you, how many years into your 25-year stewardship would you say you came to that realization? A good 10 years. A good 10 years. I am 66 years old and I still, it's a blessing and a curse, but it's also just a fact about who I am. I still sort of go on instinct and take people at face value. And usually I appreciate that I had that quality, but I've been burned by it for sure. And we have been. Yeah. Well, you're not the only one. I'm very similar like that. And most of the time.

[17:05] Good decisions based upon, you know, that, that, that gut instinct, but sometimes not.

[17:12] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so like you're, you're trying to decide between these two candidates at this point. And so where do you see the biggest opportunities for this next generation of leadership at CAS? Oh, I think there's a tremendous opportunity. And, And in fact, a necessity to say, who do we want to be right now? How best? You know, it's time for a new strategic vision. It is time for a new strategic plan. And the candidates who didn't bring that big picture thinking to the table were not so interesting to us. It is vital that the next leader of this organization recognizes that the earth is on fire, that politics are insane, that it is so very difficult for an animal sanctuary to get any sort of attention. In the media, because the world is the way it is, we are where we are. And so, and there's not a.

[18:40] You know, despite the good work of people like you and your parents and vegan doctors and nutritionists and the money that's been invested in developing and scaling plant-based meat products. I'm not a fan of the meat substitutes, and you're not either, right? I don't think you are. But, you know, there have been these pretty impressive changes, but the number of animals consumed isn't decreasing.

[19:27] So, and even if you set aside the ethics for a bit, you know, the unbelievable suffering from birth to death of so many animals, um...

[19:42] There's not a chance in hell that this planet is going to continue to be the planet that we have known and loved unless there is a rapid, very rapid shift to plant-based living. Because our consumption of animals is one of the leading sources of virtually everything that's wrong with the planet, as you know, and as your listeners know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's such a shame that so much of that information is just kind of being swept under the rug. And most people are completely ignorant to that. Completely ignorant, right. And so to circle back to the original question, what do you want, you know, what's next for the organization? I think what's next is to ask that question, what should be next in this current environment? How can we, with our limited resources, how can we have the biggest impact possible? And that's not for me to answer. It's just for me to raise the question.

[21:07] Well, I like that. How can we have the biggest impact possible? Just writing that down because I want to remember that. In the, right. Yeah. In 2025. Yeah.

Challenges for Animal Sanctuaries

[21:21] So in your opinion, when you look around in your world and the different animal sanctuaries that are out there, would you say that animal sanctuaries are getting better or getting worse?

[21:42] I'll be honest and say that I think that it's often not better or worse. I think it's that they, too many, are struggling and shutting down because there is insufficient funding. So, I do think that the messaging, and I'm proud of this because I believe we have influenced this. And the reason I think that is because about 15 sanctuaries from all over the world have sent their folks to us to learn how we talk with people.

[22:29] And so I think there's been a softening of the messaging. I think there is less judgment when people go for an experience at a sanctuary. In fact, I know there is. But and so in that way, sanctuaries have improved, but there isn't nearly enough funding. There isn't – the need is as great as it ever was. The need for rescue is as great as it ever was. The need to have the animals be a part of the vegan making, right? Because when a turkey falls asleep in somebody's lap, they're done. They're not changed. Their lives are changed. Like, we see it over and over and over, and sanctuary people are so familiar with this.

[23:26] But if there's not enough funding—, because the funding base hasn't nearly kept pace with a dramatic increase in the number of sanctuaries, then you're not saving as many animals. And if you're not saving as many animals, then you're not having as much impact. So I wouldn't call it better or worse. I would call it different. And I would say that the primary need, if we are going to strengthen sanctuaries as a part of this community, to create a plant-based world, then you need a few things. You need more funding. You need more partnerships with organizations like yours. And you need a more rigorous process for becoming a sanctuary. Anybody can open a sanctuary. Right. So and there's still a naivete about despite all the resources that are out there in support of sanctuaries.

[24:36] They not funding, but other kinds of resources. Still, there's a naive there's an incredible naivete on the part of people who think that, you know. They're like, if you build it, they will come kind of. How many, uh, do you refer to the people that work with you as team members? What, what, what, how many people work on Catskill animal sanctuary? 25 on the payroll. Yeah. And then, and then a lot of volunteers. Huh? That's a lot. It's not. Um, let me ask you this. Um, So you're going to be stepping away once you make this higher, I would imagine, sometime in 2025. What kind of involvement are you going to continue to have or not?

Kathy's Future After CAS

[25:33] It honestly, without spilling the beans, because it would be premature to spill the beans.

[25:44] These two people are so different that in part it depends on the choice, so I will be a part of the board for a bit I will come back to speak I have an offer to write the next book that I may that I may or may not do. I don't know. Well, you like writing, don't you? Oh, I love to write. I love to write. But Rip, you know, this work is all-consuming. It is all-consuming. And I don't know. I've never been... There are a lot of people, a whole lot of people, in fact, there are a whole lot of people on our team who are...

[26:40] Not truly one-dimensional, but this is their entire world. And this has never been my entire world. I absolutely have loved this experience, but I love my family, who I don't see enough. I love my friends. I love hiking and biking and kayaking, and I don't do enough of any of that. So I do not know how I'm going to feel when I get on the other side. Once I get on the other side and go, oh, I really miss CAS, then maybe I will come back and clean stalls. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. I want to do the physical work. I don't necessarily want to do the mental work except in support of the board in the ED who will be able to call me anytime they want. Yeah. Doesn't it? Sometimes it feels like it would be so nice to be able to just roll up your sleeves and just do something that's very tangible. Clean this stall, you know.

[27:45] Get down your mind. Yeah. Clean the stall, bathe the horse, 100%. Yeah. So I know it, I'm just going to ask you this question, and I know you don't know fully what it looks like. But, you know, 25 years at the helm, you're 66 years old, you're going to be passing the baton on to this new leadership. We don't know what exactly what that looks like yet. But so what do you see retirement? What do you think that looks like for you besides hiking, biking, swimming, hanging out with friends, family?

[28:21] Uh so i there's a there's a um book somebody wrote it you might have written it called the purpose-driven life i didn't write it but no i i definitely did i say you might have written it you might have read it you might have read it i know you didn't write it i i could start crediting you with that if you'd like okay so the purpose-driven life so i i.

[28:46] Even when I was little, I had purpose. My purpose was to defend the kids who got picked on in school from the bullies. That was my purpose when I was a little kid. And I will find that next purpose. It may well continue to be with animals in some different capacity. But in the same way that I taught for a decade and was offered the to offer the principalship of a new school and decided to turn that down, I feel this like this is kind of complete. It's kind of done. Not my love for it, not my passion for it. But I there is something in me that is ready for something new. And I think that is in part about where we are politically. Yeah. Well, I think that's really, I think, insightful of you. I think it's very courageous of you to be like, you know what, now's a good time. Now's a good time for me to step aside, allow, you know, this new leadership to come in and explore other things. Because a lot of people, I don't think, you know, they'd be willing to.

[30:14] Curious to make that, that step. I have been talking about making this step. Maybe I shouldn't say this. For a long time. For a long time. And it's not just for me. This organization needs somebody younger. They need somebody that, not because I'm feeble, I'm very young now.

[30:42] I'm not an old lady, but they need somebody who can bring in new ideas, a fresh perspective, who can talk to young people in a way that I don't necessarily think that I can be as effective. They certainly need somebody who embraces technology and can use it for the organization's benefit. Um so it's it's time for cas it's not just about me this is about the whole thing yeah yeah.

[31:22] So i want to circle back to the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned it's kind of cold rainy you're wearing a sweater today next monday it's going to be 97, feel like 100-something.

Climate Change Impact

[31:39] What have you seen, like, what are the impacts of climate change on farm sanctuaries, including, you know, CAS? Okay. So, last time I checked, which was a few years ago, 17 sanctuaries had relocated, and many of them, some were relocating because they wanted bigger property, but many were relocating because of climate, whether it was fire or drought or flooding or, so the impact has been profound. Everything from.

[32:23] How complicated it is these days to grow hay, right? Because readers don't know this, but hay, when you grow hay, it has to lay down on the ground and dry out for a few days. And if you miss that window, then you can lose an entire hay crop, an entire cutting, they're called. And so it's hard for farmers to look and see a stretch of dry weather. So there was a year recently when the farmers were worried that there was only going to be one cutting of hay. In a really good year, you can get in three cuttings. Two is the norm.

[33:12] So, and that just means the hay grows to a certain height and it's ready to be harvested and you go in and then the grass regrows and you have a second cutting and then it's cut and baled and then the grass regrows. If you're really, really, really lucky, every now and then you can have a third cutting. So, it's impacting the growth of the food that feeds the animals, which of course impacts availability, which impacts price. So, that's a very basic thing. We have lost half of our trees due to disease or erosion because we're in a valley. And maybe you'll actually come here. We need to talk about that. Yeah. We're in a valley, and this rain tends to—we're now having lots of gentle rain, but we've been having these crazy dumps where you get one, two, three, four, five inches of rain in a few hours, and the erosion is unbelievable. So for us, our hills are turning to rock. There's so much erosion. And then also trees are toppling. So we're dealing with.

[34:27] Pretty major erosion and tree loss. And of course, we're also dealing with terrible flooding because we're in a valley. And then there are other West Coast sanctuaries have had to relocate because of the fires. Well, if I remember correctly, I think the last time you were on the podcast, we talked about the potential relocation of CAS. Yeah. And did anything come of that? Anything come to fruition or no? We looked at 22 properties. We found three that we loved. We made three offers. We were rejected twice.

[35:21] The one offer on a gorgeous place in Gardner, which is just south of New Paltz for listeners who are in our region, was just an exquisite property that had all the right things. But there was a conservation easement on it and we naively thought this land conservancy and essentially very quickly how those work is a non-profit that is set up to preserve open space, buys a piece of property from a call it in this case a farmer who needs cash the farmer gets the cash in his pocket, and the... Nonprofit, in this case, the Open Space Institute, gets to dictate in perpetuity what can and can't be built on that property. So we thought they will love us. All we want to do is build barns. We don't want to develop the land. We're not going to put an apartment complex. They said we met with them.

[36:32] They would allow us to build three run-ins of 300 square feet. Oh, that's not going to do it. Not going to do it for 60 sheep and 18 cows, et cetera, et cetera. So that deal was dead. And then the second two, we were outbid on one. And then the other was just, we were just flatly rejected and the piece of property is still for sale and we can't. But the realtor said, you don't want to be in this town. This is not a town that's going to be friendly to an animal sanctuary. Well, so where does that leave you? Are you guys still on the hunt for a piece of property?

[37:23] Where it leaves us is that we can only focus on one massive thing. This was taking a lot of time, a lot of resources, human resources. And the clock was ticking with my wanting to do this transition. And so we paused for a bit. We're going to onboard this new person and then see where we are because it feels pretty vital that we move. It's just a lot harder rip than we...

[37:50] Realized it was going to be. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, most things are, aren't they?

How to Support CAS

[37:56] A lot of things are, yeah. So everybody that's listening to this wonderful story about Catskill Animal Sanctuary, what can we do to help out? What can we do? Can we, you know, Give you gifts. I'm sure that you would appreciate. What is it? Money? What do you need? So there is not a sanctuary. This is no exaggeration. There is not a sanctuary in this country, I don't think. There might be one. There might be one that isn't struggling financially. We did a survey. Donations are way down. So absolutely, if you have the capacity to give and you believe in the work of farmed animal sanctuaries, then 1,000 bazillion percent give money. If you are able-bodied and love physical work, then there are many volunteer opportunities. But it's not brushing the horses.

[39:06] It is very physical work, lifting 50-pound bales of hay and big bags of shavings and cleaning. And, you know, you're surrounded by the animals. And so it's very – people – we have volunteers who've been here for 20 years. Right. But don't romanticize it, guys. If you don't like physical work, then it's not the right opportunity. And then the third way, particularly for, you know, you have a huge vegan audience, bring your family and friends because a lot of times all they need is for a sheep to press his head into their chest or for a cow to lick their face over and over and over again. And for that moment of awareness, my very favorite story from 20-some years of doing tours is when a young man who was on somebody else's tour...

[40:12] Had just come from the turkey barn. Turkeys are so profoundly affectionate and sensitive and gentle and just so lovely. He came from the turkey barn. He locked eyes with me like across the parking lot. And he sprinted up to me and burst into tears. And he grabbed my arms and he said, I get it now. Tell me what to do. So the third thing, bring your family and friends because out of all of what we do, the blogging, the public speaking, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the animals are our very best vegan makers. Yeah.

Heartwarming Animal Stories

[41:00] Can you regale one of your wonderful animal stories, a particular animal that you've had on Catskill Animal Sanctuary that touched your heart? I know so many of them do, but the last time I had you on and we were talking, you literally regaled us with at least three to five stories, and they were all just so heartwarming or heart-wrenching, depending upon the story. But I want to hear a story about one of the animals. Okay. My favorite story that I actually don't think I shared. I might have. I might have.

[41:51] Was of an animal who literally changed my life. His name was Rambo. And hang on, I might have, do I have? Rambo, he was a sheep, right? Yeah. Yes. Can I tell that story? Please. Okay. Well, there are many stories about him, but Rambo came from an animal hoarding situation. 17 animals were locked in one 12-by-12 stall, and then outside in a tiny pen was a giant Holstein steer. There was a decomposing cow in the stall, and these animals were in filth, and just the way animals always are from hoarders. They're always loaded with parasites. They're always just filthy. So there were several goats, several sheep, and Rambo, the ram, Rambo, which is just an unneutered male sheep. Rambo was a Jacob sheep, and he had horns that at the base were this big around, and they came back like this, but then they curled in front of his face. He was a magnificent-looking animal.

[43:10] He was also an angry animal and a violent animal. And the woman did not legally surrender the animals, which meant that we couldn't neuter him.

[43:26] We couldn't neuter him until he was ours, ours. So we had to separate him so he wouldn't impregnate all the females, which, by the way, They turned out to be pregnant anyway when they arrived, and so we had a whole other new crop of babies. Well, every time we would go into the stall, Rambo would back up and get a running start and just come at us. Boom, boom, and he was hurting us, so we had cut two holes in a piece of plywood to protect ourselves when we went in. And I just thought, this animal, we thought, is miserable. He came from a stall. He came from a stall.

[44:15] We've put him back in a stall. He's just telling us he wants to be free. But this was in our early days, and we didn't have 30 barns and all these fields. And so we had limited options as to where he could go. So we decided to let him be free 24 hours a day because our thinking was, we knew there were coyotes in the hills, but we'd never seen them. We thought that if they dared come down, he would give them a run for his money. It felt like a risk we had to take. So as soon as we did that, Rambo began all that rage, started to leave him.

[45:05] And that's all he was telling us. I don't want to be in a box. It's pretty obvious. Like, I don't want to be in a box. So we put two at the end of our, two both ends of our long hundred and some foot long barn. We put two big beds of straw. And Rambo would kind of patrol during the day. And at night, he'd sleep in whatever pile of straw he picked. Well, one night I went down to check on the animals, and the main barn is 10 stalls on the left, 10 stalls on the right, and a big aisle all the way down the center. And I went from stall to stall to stall to stall. Everybody seemed fine. My eyes didn't register when I went past the stall. This was before we had our turkey barn, the stall where two turkeys were supposed to be.

[45:59] That they weren't in there. That the door was open and that they weren't in there. So I made the circle. I checked on everybody else. Everybody seemed fine. So the humans had screwed up twice, right? The afternoon crew hadn't put them away. There was a miscommunication or whatever. And then the backup hadn't even noticed that they were outside. It was November. It was sleeting. They would have had a miserable night. And one of them was blind, Thomasina. Was blind. So I went to the end. I said, good night, animals. Rambo, who was at the far end on his straw bed, stood up, walked 80 feet to where I was standing, looked up at me and went, bah. And we had never heard his voice.

[46:57] So i said because that is what this is what i was getting from him show me what's wrong, he walked down and he walked into the empty turkey stall and he turned around and looked at me, he knew they were out there in the sleet he figured out a way to tell a human being He knew that the human being would help, which said to me, oh, he gets what this place is about. And the thing that blew my mind, he had empathy for two animals who were having a pretty miserable night. And that moment taught me everything I needed to know about how we really are in the ways that matter. We really are all the same, and we humans just need to pay attention to what the animals are saying to us.

[48:01] And he's the reason we now have this ridiculous crew of free-ranging animals. We really take it to an extreme called the Underfoot family. Rambo and all the lessons that he taught us as a result of being free. Is the reason we have the Underfoot family. And here's the other interesting thing. Like Rambo, a third of my first book is Rambo stories. Because there are other stories like this that I could tell you. Rambo, what does a ram do? A ram's job is to protect the flock. We were all his flock. Every chicken was. Every horse, every human, he used to come to my window when the cows were out. I would always know the cows were out because at the very beginning, we didn't have the best fencing. And the cows would get out and be all over the farm or sometimes out in the road. And I would always know they were out because I would hear him. He would come to the window and call me. And he lived 12. He died at 16. He lived 12 unbelievable years with us. And I could tell you 10 more Rambo stories. Wow.

[49:28] And so after that night where he spoke to you for the first time, did he converse more with you after that? Yes. Yes. That, oh, you have never, nobody's ever asked me that question. A hundred thousand percent. Because he knew, because I responded to what he was telling us. No, yeah, he came and got me when the cows were out. He once blocked my car door.

[50:06] When do people, when do sheep run? sheep run when they're fleeing danger, right? The little guys run and buck and silly, but for the most part, sheep don't run unless they're being fed or unless there's incredible danger. So one day I was going out to speak somewhere, but I had to check on a horse. I was running late. I sprinted down to check on the horse. The horse was fine. I came back and Rambo was blocking the entrance to my car car he wouldn't let me get in until he did a 360 and i watched him look look any predators any predators any predator anything wrong anything wrong he turned around backed away i got in the car and drove off amazing.

[51:00] Well, You've got a lot of good stuff in your future.

Reflecting on Accomplishments

[51:10] And I'm so proud of what you've done with Catskill Animal Sanctuary. You know, sometimes we don't stop and reflect on everything that we've accomplished in 25 years, Kathy. That's pretty darn incredible. So congratulations to you. I think, you know, the thing, one of the things I love the most about you is just your, the way you have.

[51:43] Like you said in the beginning of this conversation, on the playground, you would like to, you'd stick up for the kids that were getting beat up by the bullies. You're a defender of all these voiceless animals, except for Rambo, who has a voice. But you're a defender of all these voiceless animals. And it's just so beautiful. It's wonderful that you've decided to make this your thing. And I want to thank you on behalf of myself and the PlantStrong audience. Thank you so much, Rip. It's been a beautiful thing to have. It really has. It's been, you know, my my greatest moments of joy and my greatest heartaches have been here. And I will walk away proud and still very, very connected and eager to support however I can. Yeah.

[52:49] But animals in general, not just the animals who live here, but the cause, the bigger cause in whatever way that I figure out once I get on the other side. Before we say goodbye, do you have any pets besides the animals on the farm? You know, we lost, I've never been dogless until now, but we lost both our old dogs within two months of each other last year at the same time that my partner David's house flooded. And so the house is being rebuilt and until it's rebuilt, I'm moving out of my house at the sanctuary. We are in an apartment short term and so it's not the right time to have a dog. It's just not the right time. But I ache. We go on Pet Finder and I've been to the SPCA. I ache. I have not been dogless since in my, I've barely been dogless in my life. So I deeply miss them and really look forward to having a couple of dogs very, very soon. Is there a particular type of dog that you're drawn to?

[54:18] I love them all. I like big, smart, goofy dogs. Big, smart, active, goofy dogs. We've always had rescues, but we've had labs. I had a pit mix. Just bigger. Just a bigger dog. Smart, goofy, loves to swim. And do your dogs have permission to sleep in your bed? Of course they do. Really?

[54:57] Of course they do. Like, that was kind of a thing with David, I will admit. And it's like, what do you mean the dogs have to sleep on the couch in the living room? What do you mean? But that didn't last long. So, yeah. Wow. Not you? Do you have dogs? Oh, we do. We do. Yeah, we've always had dogs. Where do they sleep? They sleep anywhere they want except for our bed. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of off limits. I am such a clean sheet snob, and I just can't handle dog hairs in the bed. Oh, no, I totally get that. And you know what else is not a great idea? When they sleep with you, you get poison ivy. Yeah, yeah. There are lots of good reasons to stick with your plan, not mine. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, I hope I will see you in a week. We'll find out. We'll talk a little bit more. But in the meantime, you need to give me a PLANTSTRONGvirtual fist bump. And Kathy Stevens, Defender of the Voiceless, you rock. Thank you, Rip. So do you. Boom. All right, over and out.

Conclusion and Call to Action

[56:17] If Kathy's story moved you, I hope that she'll take a moment to learn more about Catskill Animal Sanctuary and help keep Kathy's vision alive. Every gift, whether it's big or small, fuels the work of rescuing animals, educating the public, and inspiring compassionate plant-based living. I went to Kathy's retirement party that was in late June.

[56:45] And I got to tell you, it was one of the most beautiful events that I've attended in a long, long time. And it was so obvious that Kathy has led with love in absolutely everything that she does. And I'm still, still months later buzzing from that event. If you want to know more, you can visit casanctuary.org to see how you can get involved, plan a visit, or make a donation. But together, let's ensure that the love that Kathy poured into this sanctuary continues to change lives for decades to come. Oh, and remember, let's always, always keep it playing strong. The Plant Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, and Ami Mackey. If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones. You can always leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.

2025Ami MackeySeptember 4, 2025plantstrong, engine2, ripesselstyn, plant-based, vegan