#318: Dora Ramirez - Cooking Authentic Mexican Food Without the Meat or Dairy
Dora Ramirez of Dora’s Table
When you think about Mexican cuisine, what comes to mind? Maybe it’s the comforting aroma of tamales steaming in banana leaves, the rich complexity of a slow-simmered mole, or the lively colors of a mercado brimming with street food. For Dora Ramírez, those flavors aren’t just food—they’re part of her identity and her family’s story.
Dora grew up in Ciudad Acuña, Mexico, where her family owns and operates a traditional steakhouse. The kitchen was always alive with sizzling meats and cherished recipes, but after a health scare, Dora began to reimagine what Mexican food could look like without the heavy reliance on animal products.
What she discovered was transformative: plant-based cooking didn’t strip away her culture—it actually deepened her connection to it. By leaning into vegetables, grains, legumes, and spices, Dora found that she could honor her roots while creating dishes that were nourishing and compassionate.
Today, Dora is a celebrated cookbook author whose latest work, Comida Casera, shines a spotlight on the beauty of plant-based Mexican cuisine. From home comfort foods and desserts, and from Indigenous traditions to modern street fare, Dora’s recipes showcase that culture and flavor can thrive—without compromise.
Key Takeaways from Dora’s Journey:
From Steakhouse to Plants: Dora’s upbringing in a meat-centric environment makes her plant-based transformation all the more inspiring.
Comida Casera: Her cookbook is filled with traditional recipes reimagined with plant-based ingredients, proving that heritage and health can live side by side.
Cultural Touchstones: Dishes like tamales and mole carry deep cultural meaning, and Dora shows how they can be preserved and celebrated in plant-strong form.
Kitchen Confidence: She offers practical tips and step-by-step instructions for anyone who wants to bring authentic Mexican flavors to their table—no animal products required.
Food as Connection: At its heart, Dora’s story is about honoring family, culture, and health through the universal language of food.
A Love Letter to Food and Culture
In Comida Casera, Dora makes it clear that eating plant-based isn’t about giving up—it’s about gaining a deeper appreciation for tradition, for wellness, and for the way food connects us to each other. Her recipes are vibrant, authentic, and rooted in love.
Whether you’re exploring plant-based eating for the first time or looking for fresh ways to bring Mexican flavor into your kitchen, Dora’s journey is proof that food can be both innovative and timeless.
Order Comida Casera
Episode Resources:
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Full Episode Transcription via AI Transcription Service
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast.
[0:05] From a family steakhouse to a plant powerhouse, today I am thrilled to introduce you to Dora Ramirez, a chef who's blending her deep Mexican tradition with a bold PLANTSTRONG twist. We'll have her delicious journey right after these words from PLANTSTRONG.
[0:26] Hey PLANTSTRONG friends if you live near a whole food market store now is a fantastic time to stock up on our ready-to-eat chilies and stews and our four delicious milks made from whole plants all are on sale nationwide through September 16th so stop in and stock up today If you've been feeling burned out, stuck, or just ready for a fresh start, you're not alone. This November, I want to invite you to join us for six restorative days in Black Mountain, North Carolina, surrounded by the beauty of the Blue Ridge Mountains, nourished by whole plant-based meals, and supported by a community that truly gets it. At the Plant Strong Retreat, we'll move our bodies, calm our minds, and rediscover what it means to feel alive and aligned. With expert speakers, deep conversations, and time to breathe, this is your chance to come home to yourself.
[1:35] And if you're a physician, physician assistant, nurse, or nurse practitioner, you'll earn continuing education credit as part of the registration fee. Space is limited, and this experience fills up fast. Visit liveplantstrong.com to join us. I hope to see you on the mountain.
[1:56] Dora Ramirez grew up loving the bold, beautiful flavors of Mexican cooking. But when she decided to give up animal products for her health, she worried that those flavors would be gone forever. ever. But instead of losing her food heritage, she discovered something incredible. Plant strong ingredients could actually enhance those flavors and bring her culture to life in a whole new way. Her new cookbook, Comida Casera, is a delicious love letter to Mexico. From home style comfort food to the vibrant flavors of street markets, Dora is proof that you don't have to sacrifice tradition to eat in a way that's compassionate and healthy.
[2:41] So grab a seat at Dora's table because we're celebrating Hispanic Heritage Month with Chef Dora Ramirez.
[2:52] All right, everyone. Today, I want to welcome Dora Ramirez to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. Dora, it really is. It's a pleasure to have you today. Where am I talking to you from? I live in San Antonio, Texas, and it's a pleasure to be here. San Antonio. So you're only an hour and a half away from me, roughly. Yep. Just up. I'm just up I-35. Yeah. You know, I find I-35 to be an absolute bear. I can't stand driving I-35. So much traffic. So dangerous. Yeah, for sure.
[3:36] You ever get up to Austin? You know, I don't as often because of the traffic, but I do every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I get down to San Antonio a couple times a year, typically for a swim meet for one of my kids. Well, let's talk about you and some of the fantastic work that you've been doing. I love having different cookbook authors on the Plant Strong podcast to share their work of art and share their recipes and what was the inspiration for writing the book. What I love about, What you have written is, you know, you've, for the audience, you've written this book, Comida Cacera, and it has so much Mexican flair to it. And as you say in the cover, you know, it's traditional and modern Mexican recipes. And I can tell you, living in Austin, Texas, and being here since 1982, one of my favorite dishes in the whole wide world is good Mexican food. And I am so excited to dive into many of these recipes. But let's talk about you.
Dora's Culinary Journey
[5:01] Tell the audience, where in the world did you grow up? I grew up in Ciudad Acuña, which is a town on the border with Del Rio, Texas. And I grew up, I'm a border girl. And if you've ever been to a border, it's like one big city. It's not, you know, we say, you know, you're divided by a bridge, but really it is one big city because people work over there and live over here and work over there and live over here. So it's a really unique culture. Wow. And did you have brothers and sisters? I have three sisters. Uh-huh. And where do you fall? Are you the oldest, the middle, the youngest? I'm the third one. Okay. You're the third one. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Wonderful. And are your sisters, are they still, do they still live there or have they migrated to other places? I have one sister that lives in Monterrey, Mexico, and then my other sisters live in Del Rio, Texas.
Family Restaurant Legacy
[6:04] Got it. and I think, What is really interesting about your journey and your story is your parents had a restaurant. They still do. They still have it? Yeah. Incredible. And tell everybody, what kind of restaurant do they have? It's a steakhouse.
[6:27] It is a steakhouse. Yeah. And how long has that steakhouse been in the family? 34 years. Wow. And was it started by your father? Yes. Wow. And is that because he had a love for food or because he wanted to have his own business? I think it was more of an entrepreneurial decision. He was a PE teacher, and then it was kind of like a hard economic time in Mexico at the time, and he saw an opportunity and he took it. Wow.
[7:02] And what's the size of this little city? Does everybody know about the restaurant? Well, I would think so because it's the best restaurant in the whole city. Well, now it's not a small town. Now it's a city, but it is a pretty well-known restaurant. Yeah. And did you, in growing up, did you spend much time there? Oh, yeah. I grew up there. My mother stopped cooking when I was about six years old, which is when the restaurant opened because she's like, why am I still cooking if we have a restaurant? So that's where we ate all of our family meals. That's where I was dropped off after school, where I did my homework. That's where I was punished. As a teenager, if I got punished, I would get sent to work at the restaurant. So I grew up in the business. Oh, my goodness. And did you... Growing up, did you appreciate the restaurant? Did you enjoy hanging out there?
[8:06] No, no. You know, it's kind of like the thing your parents do. You know, you're just like, oh, so you want to be home hanging out and you're in the restaurant and you're like, when can we go home? And then as a teenager, you know, it was my punishment. So I didn't like it either. Yeah. Well, give me an idea. So if the place was jam packed with people and you had like a waiting list, how many people could the restaurant hold? The restaurant holds 200 people. 200?
[8:36] Oh, that's a lot of people. Yeah, it's huge. Oh my God. How many employees are there at the restaurant? I would say between 35 and 40. Wow. And your parents are still going strong? Yep.
Transition to Plant-Based
[8:55] Wow. And what do they think about your whole transition to plant-based slash veganism? You know, they struggled a lot with it in the beginning. You know, they did the classic thing where I was like, I'm going vegan. And they're like, oh, it's just a phase. Or they would ask me things like, but you can eat chicken. And I'm like, no, no chicken. Like, but you can eat cheese. And I'm like, no, no genes. So at one point they were so confused, you know, like, what are we going to feed you? But now they're totally on board. Yeah. And are they eating more plant-based themselves? Yes, definitely. Definitely. I think before I started my whole journey, it was a very much, you know how in the United States it's meat and potatoes? In Mexico, it's meat, rice and beans.
[9:51] So it was a lot It was a lot of meat, rice and beans And now there's a lot more vegetables Yeah Um, You, in your introduction to your book, you talk about how there was this fateful day where you had a block of tofu.
[10:08] I think it was in your kitchen or your mother's kitchen. And your mother tried it just plain, right? And was like, oh, and that somehow was the impetus for you to, if I'm not mistaken, start Dora's Table, right? Yes. So I had already gone vegan, but I was so excited. You know, I was so passionate about it. And I wanted my mom, my mom got diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at the time. And so I was already, you know, I had read all the books. I was so into it. And I'm like, mom, you have to do this. You have to, it could reverse your type 2 diabetes. And so she was like, okay, I'll try it. And that's when it happened. I had the block of tofu in her kitchen. I was going to prepare her a meal. And if you've ever seen queso panela, queso panela is like a very fresh Mexican cheese. It looks just like tofu so she saw this plate of tofu which she thought was cheese and she literally grabbed a knife and like cut off a piece and put it in her mouth she no she was like what is this what are you doing and i'm like i was gonna no don't why are you doing so to this day she refuses to try tofu again.
Inspiration for Dora's Table
[11:25] Okay. And is she still have type 2 diabetes or is that something that she's been able to beat? So after that fateful day, she was the one that told me, why can't you just make this Mexican? Like, why are you trying to give me all this weird food? Why can't you just make it Mexican? And so that's when I was like, of course, that's where I should have started. And that's really what kind of catapulted the creation of Dora's Table because I started veganizing all of our family recipes in an effort to get my mom to go vegan and reverse her type 2 diabetes. So my mom's diabetes is under control right now. She's not fully vegan, But she does eat a lot more plants. She does really, I think, has a more of a knowledge of, you know, the damage that processed foods is due to her diet. You know, the benefits of plant-based cooking. It's hard for her to make the jump completely. But I think from where we started, you know, it has greatly benefited her. Well, speaking of making the jump, you...
[12:38] When exactly did you make the jump, and what were your reasons for embracing plant-based nutrition? So I was having a health issue, and I was going to doctor after doctor after doctor, and they kept giving me medication and medication, and I just felt worse
Health Transformation
[12:59] every time, worse and worse, and different medications. And I was living in California at the time, and it was around the time that the documentary Forks Over Knives came out. And I had a friend that was in a mommy group with me and she said, oh, you know, I know you have all your health issues. So why don't you watch this documentary Forks Over Knives? And I'm like, no, thank you. No, thank you. Because I don't want to stop eating meat or cheese or any of the foods that I love. And but she was so insistent. I would see her every week because we were in a mommy group. And every week she would ask me, did you watch it? And I'm like, no, I didn't watch it. Did you watch it? No, I didn't watch it. So then it came down to me either quitting the mummy group or watching Forks Over Knives because she would not leave me alone.
[13:54] And so I watched it. And what I was afraid that was going to happen happened, which was that I decided to try it. And so I tried it, I think, for like two weeks. And I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do it. It's too hard. And then I kept trying and I kept trying. I think my mistake was that I tried to do it, you know, cold turkey. I think I needed to do a more gradual approach.
[14:21] But at the end, I did it for 40 days. Like that was like my longest stretch. And that was when I began to see changes in my health. and I was in pain and my pain disappeared. I was able to drop all of the medications that I was taking and that was it. I was like, well, I'm vegan now.
[14:43] Can you remember, so you put off, you put off, you put off watching Forks Over Knives. You finally decided to watch it. Can you remember what it was about the documentary that hit you and you were like, wow, I am going to give this a try. I think the part that hit me the hardest was that a couple years before we had lost my mother-in-law to cancer. And so when there's this portion of Forks Over Knives that focuses on how cancer patients have seen great results and how, you know, some people are in remission. And so to me, it was so heart-wrenching to think, like, could this have saved my mother-in-law? Like, can this save a lot of different people? And so that was what I think was like, well, then, like, if this lifestyle of this diet is so impactful, then I have no excuse not to try it.
Discovering Culinary Passion
[15:45] What year was that? Do you remember? That was 2014, I think. Mm-hmm. Okay. And you, at one point, almost became a nun. Yes. And, you know, you did a year in Mexico City as a missionary.
[16:09] What ultimately prevented you from becoming a nun? It wasn't my vocation. So the whole point of being a missionary is that I went to go live with the nuns. And so in that year, it's called the year of discernment. And you're supposed to kind of figure out if that's what God is calling you to do. And so then at the end of that year, it was clear to me that that was not what God wanted me to do. But it was also how I discovered that I wanted to be a chef at the same time.
[16:43] So that was kind of, I guess, a blessing. Yeah. And what was it about being in Mexico City that made you decide you wanted to become a chef? So I grew up in northern Mexico.
[16:56] And northern Mexico's cuisine is sometimes very limited. It's a lot of meat. It's a lot of flour tortillas. You know, there's not a lot of vegetables. And so I hadn't really been exposed to the rest of Mexico. And so that year that I lived in Mexico City, I, my mind was just like blown at everything of all the different types of vegetables of like, I had never had a tortilla made with fresh nixtamolized corn. I had always had tortillas made with mazarina. So just that, just to see how, what it, you know, what a real tortilla tastes like. And then to be able to get all this amazing whole food on the street, street vendors are selling, you know, quesadillas made with real nixomalized corn filled with mushrooms, filled with zucchini blossoms. And so that to me was like, it really opened my mind to what Mexican food is. And then at the same time, I met a girl who was with me in the discernment process who had gone to culinary school. And she told me all about culinary school. And so I was like, that sounds fun. That sounds amazing. And then it all just kind of clicked like, oh, like that's what my family does. I don't know why. I was like, oh yeah, that's what we do.
[18:19] So true. You just mentioned zucchini blossoms. And I know you have several recipes in your book that have zucchini blossoms. What exactly are zucchini blossoms? So zucchini blossoms are the flower from the zucchini plant, and they're completely edible. And in Mexico, they've been eaten for hundreds of years. Usually now you can find them in quesadillas, but you can find them stuffed. You can find them in a salad. And so they have a very mild, fresh flavor, and they're really great with corn. So I think the flavor of corn really enhances, like it really complements each other. And if you grow your own zucchini, you know what zucchini blossoms are. They're beautiful yellow flowers that are so prolific when you're growing zucchini. Yeah, I definitely, we have grown our own zucchini, but I've never thought to eat those flowers. And now I will.
[19:26] You went to the Culinary Institute of America. in New York what was that experience like? You know, Rip, I was a vegan hater. A little confession. There was a group of vegans in my school and everybody was like, what are they even doing here? You know, like, how are they even going to learn how to cook? That's ridiculous. And now I look back and I'm like, if I only known what was going to happen. But that experience, the Culinary Institute of America is the best culinary school in the U.S. It is an amazing opportunity to meet people from all over the world, to meet different chefs, to learn from different cuisines. I really had an amazing time as a student there, but also learned so much from people from other countries and their cuisines. So it was a really wonderful, wonderful experience. Yeah. How long was this education? It's two years if you're doing culinary arts, but then you can also do four years and that'll get you like a bachelor's in like hotel and restaurant management. Wow. And how long were you there? I was there for two years. So I did culinary arts.
[20:48] Do you know how many people were in your class with you? You know, we were divided into smaller classes. So like in my small class, there was like 30 people, but my whole generation of that year, I'm not quite sure. But there's over 5,000 students, I think, right now at the Culinary Institute of America. Yeah, there's a lot of students. Yeah. So when you look back on it i mean the fact that your your parents, had a steak restaurant you you were like oh my god what are vegans doing at this you know the culinary institute of america used to eat cow stomach soup and grasshoppers and now you are like representing. You are playing strong. I love it. I mean, it just goes to show you anything's possible, doesn't it? Yes, definitely.
[21:54] What you talk about in your book, decolonizing your diet.
[22:02] Can you explain what exactly that means? So decolonizing your diet is simply recognizing that the conquest, when the Spanish came to Mexico and conquered Mexico, They caused us so much harm because they came and not only killed millions of people, but destroyed their way of eating. They came in saying corn is blasphemous. You know, wheat is from God because that's what, you know, they're Catholic. So that's what the host is made of. It's made of wheat. So we need to destroy all of the corn. And so the indigenous people, their cuisine is based on corn. And so the Spanish came in and tried to destroy the corn. They couldn't.
[22:50] Burned all of their documents, all of their scrolls, destroyed everything. The only evidence we have of that time are accounts from monks who decided that the culture was too important to lose. And so they started documenting what they were seeing. And that's the only evidence there is really of the way that people ate. But the way that they ate was mostly plant-based. The cuisine is based on an agricultural system called la milpa, which is an intercropping of corn, squash, beans, tomatoes, chiles. And it's a self-sustainable system because they ate everything. The weeds that grew from the system, it's called quelites.
[23:38] Now in Mexico, they're considered wild greens. But here in the United States, they would be considered weeds. They would eat the fungus that grew on the corn, which is what we now call wheat lacoche, which is a very prized food item in Mexico. And so that system was what fed them. And if you look at how they ate in a day, it was mostly like atole, which is like a corn thickened drink. I think if they were working, they would take like a tamal in their pocket for their workday. And then, you know, for like their big meal, they might have, you know, they were, if they had wild game or insects or fish, but it was more of a compliment to the actual diet. The main, main item in the diet was corn. So decolonizing your diet is recognizing that the Spanish came and conquered and brought us harm and that we as a culture need to rediscover our roots. And then in my case, rediscovering that roots has been to rediscover our diet, our indigenous diet. Yeah. Isn't that something? That's a fascinating story. And that your indigenous diet really was, going back to the roots, La Milpa was the traditional crops were, They were plant strong. Wow.
[25:06] How much do you love Mexican cuisine? Is it your favorite cuisine of all cuisines out there?
The Importance of Mexican Cuisine
[25:13] It's my life. You know, I collect old Mexican cookbooks. The cuisine is so varied. It varies from region to region. Like you could never stop learning from it. You can never stop learning from it. It's my favorite thing to cook. It's really, it's my business. It's what brings me passion. So yes, I would say it's my favorite cuisine.
[25:38] So this, how much time did you spend writing this book? So from start to finish, from the time I wrote the manuscript to the time it was published, it was almost three years, a little less than three years. Yeah. And what does comida casada mean exactly? Comida casada means home cooking. Uh-huh. And what inspired you to actually set out on this journey and write a cookbook? So I think I've always wanted to write a cookbook. And when I started blogging in 2011, and from when I went plant-based, I was like, this needs to be a book. Because if I can get my mother to reverse her type 2 diabetes, then I can get my tia, you know, my uncle. You know, my community is struggling with type 2 diabetes. It's struggling with heart disease. It's struggling with being overweight. So I was so excited about it that this could be the key to helping my community and at the time.
[26:53] I was like it needs to be a book because in my head that was like that's the fastest way to get to the most people which I don't think is true now I think that that answer would be social media but it took me I think that long to grow I think to grow myself to grow my knowledge of plant-based cooking, and then to be in a place, because I have three kids, so you can't really write a book when your kids are like three and four and five, for the kids to grow up and for me to have the time to actually write this book. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced while adapting some of these traditional Mexican dishes to be plant-based traditional Mexican dishes.
[27:43] So I worked really hard to find a good balance. I myself, I'm not a big fan of like meat substitutes. My favorite meat substitute is mushrooms. So that I don't think was an issue for me, but I did want to, like, I know people, especially who are transitioning might lean towards more meat substitutes or people like use TVP or like even soy curls. So I did try to find a good balance between just naturally plant-based, all just whole foods and vegetables, and then including things like TBP and soy curls and meat substitutes. I think the hardest part was trying to stay true to the recipe.
[28:28] You know, to the tradition, to the culture and having not dumbing it down, you know, not being because my publisher was like, well, can't you just use canned tomatoes? You know, can't you just, I remember there's a recipe for mole, and if you read it, it says it takes six hours to make. And the publisher is like, you can't reduce that. And I'm like, I can't. I can't do it. So I do include, though, tips at the bottom of the recipes. They're called time-saving tips, and it'll let you, and like, especially for the mole, so that you don't spend six hours doing it. I give you steps like day one, like do this and this, like day two, do this and this. And all the recipes have a little time-saving tip, how you can prep it ahead so that that way the recipes weren't dumbed down or stripped of their, you know, original intention. Well, it's really smart. And I love the fact that you kind of held true to your, you know, your beliefs and you didn't want to dumb it down. and yeah, it takes six hours to make this mole.
[29:40] We could do a shortcut, it'd be 30 minutes, but it wouldn't be the same thing, right? So how pleased are you with the depth of the traditional flavors that you're able to get in your recipes here with just using plants? You know, in the beginning, when I went plant-based, I was devastated that I wasn't going to be able to eat my abuelita's pozole. So my grandma would make like humongous, huge, huge pots, like the biggest pot that you can imagine of pozole. She would make it for Christmas.
[30:21] And when I went plant-based, I thought, well, I'm never going to have her pozole ever again. Yeah. And then I was like Well why don't I just make it vegan And so I made it vegan And when I tried it, I almost cried because it tasted just like her pozole because in Mexican cooking, and I'm sure you can attest in other cuisines as well, it's not the meat that gives it the flavor. It's the spices. It's the cooking techniques. So I am very happy with how the book turned out. And I think it's really true to my Mexican flavors, the ones I grew up with, the regions in Mexico that I traveled to research, that they really come out through the pages. Like that pozole that's in the book is my abuelita's pozole, and it tastes just like her pozole that she used to make. Wow.
[31:14] I'm going to go through a bunch of these recipes, and I want you to talk about some of them. But is there one, and maybe that's the one, that pozole, that gave you the hardest time trying to just nail it and get it just right and you were able to do it? No, it's actually, they're called pastes and they're almost like empanadas, but they're filled. I wanted to make, they make some filled with vegetables, but I wanted to make one that was more meat-like. And then that one gave me a lot of trouble because I used I tried different I tried mushrooms and I was like that's not quite right and then I tried another kind of meat substitute that's not quite right and then I ended up with tbp and I'm like that's not quite right and so I think I ended up with a mixture of like mushrooms and tbp and then but to kind of mimic that taste and the texture of meat um that was kind of difficult with that recipe tell me the name of that recipe again they're called pastes p-a-s-t-e-s but i think in english they are called empanadas okay okay yeah yeah um is there is there one recipe in the book that in your mind best captures the spirit of the book and why you wrote the book, Hmm.
[32:43] There's a recipe. There's a whole chapter that's called the indigenous kitchen. And I traveled to Mexico and I worked with cocineras tradicionales and cocineras tradicionales are indigenous cooks that are revered by the community as holding the knowledge of the cuisine for that specific community. And Mexico has done a great job in the last couple of years in supporting them, giving them grants, helping them open their own restaurants, helping them start cooking classes. And the recipes in that chapter are all documented. I traveled to Mexico and I documented naturally plant-based recipes that are made in that community. And so there's one recipe, it's called chichilo, which is a mole that was made by a cocinera called Evangelina. And that mole is a ceremonial mole, it's only made in funerals. And so the whole community, like someone dies and the whole community comes to that person's house, brings an ingredient, and then they all together, you know, while they're mourning, they're making this mole.
[33:59] So Evangelina has dedicated her life to sharing the recipe for this mole because she calls it a receta de rescate, which means it's a recipe that needs to be rescued because the younger generation doesn't want to make it anymore. You know, they don't want to, you know, go through like the whole ritual of having people come to their house and make the mole. And so I think that's a really good recipe that really represents what I wanted
Documenting Indigenous Recipes
[34:33] to do with this book, which is this specific recipe is dying. Nobody wants to make it anymore, but it's part of our culture. It's part of our cuisine. And to be able to have the privilege to print it for Evangelina, I think really embodies what the book is about, to really honor our traditionally plant-based dishes and to really, you know, uplift the cuisine and the people of Mexico.
[35:05] Good for you. Yeah, that's really neat. So I'm sure that a lot of the listeners right now on the podcast, I would imagine probably haven't had that much experience cooking traditional Mexican dishes like the ones that you offer here. Any advice to them if they decide to get your book and start tackling some of these incredible recipes? What recommendation would you give to them?
[35:44] I would say they have nothing to worry about. I worked with 80 different recipe testers who tested these recipes. They were from all over the world, all different skill sets when it comes to the kitchen. So I did have to rewrite my first chapter because I wrote it and I sent it off to the recipe testers. And I was like so confident. I'm like, this is going to be great. This is going to be easy. And then like all the surveys come back and they're like, well, I didn't understand what you meant when you said this. And I didn't understand what you meant when you did that. And I'm like, what is happening?
[36:19] So I went back and rewrote that first chapter and every single recipe, every step, like I'm, I went, I realized that there's a lot of people that need more help in the kitchen than I thought. And so I went back and the recipes are super descriptive. Like I tell you what
Accessibility in Cooking
[36:38] to do every single step of the way. And I wanted this book to be accessible to everybody. Ready so if you don't know how to cook if you're like i don't know what this ingredient is where am i going to get it what do i substitute it it's all there there's a glossary that lists all the ingredients what they are where you can get them what you can substitute them with and then every recipe is described step by step like grab the i'll tell you what size of pan you need how hot it needs to be how much time it needs to cook so i would say you have nothing to worry about if you don't know how to cook if you never cook mexican foods you can do it with this book Yeah. And your first chapter is the vegan Mexican pantry. And so you kind of set everybody up for success with these are the ingredients that you're going to need. This is the equipment that you're going to need. I do have some questions for you on...
[37:33] It's pretty important to know how to roast some peppers, isn't it? Yes. And so one of the things that I've done for a long time, because one of my favorite dishes that was in my first cookbook was a Mexican lime soup where I would roast poblano peppers.
[37:53] But I never knew how to remove the chard outside. And you have a brilliant way of doing it that you talk about in your book. Can you share that with the PlantStrong listener? Yeah, so it's really easy and you can do it even if you don't have like a gas burning stove. So if you do have a gas burning stove, you would do it right on, you would char the peppers right on the flame from the stove. But I don't have one. So I'm going to tell you how I do it at home. I turn on the oven broiler to high and then I put the peppers on a sheet pan with some aluminum foil. I put it under the broiler. it takes I want to say maybe four to five minutes on each side and you want to get them charred like they need to be charred completely charred or at least mostly you know mostly black so you flip them completely char them on the other side and then when you take them out you want to put them in a container and cover that container so it can be any it could be in like a silicone baggie it could be in you know like a pot with the lid like all that matters is that those peppers are trapped. And so what happens is because they're hot, they're going to release steam and that steam is going to loosen the skin. And so you let them sit there for five minutes and then you can just, With your hand, just slide off that skin. Super easy. Yeah.
[39:21] I can't tell you how many times I've made this dish, and that is my biggest challenge, is how do I get the skin off easily? I've put it under the sink and done it with my fingers. And my wife said, Rip, you're losing all the flavor when you do it then.
[39:40] And I've put it into brown paper bags. But what you do in the book is you talk about just kind of putting it in a Ziploc container and then closing the lid, which I can't wait to try that. What about what's the best way to clean cactus? I think, what do you call it? Nopales? Nopales. Nopales. Yes. Yeah. Nopales, you know, if you don't want to go through the trouble of cleaning them, a lot of the Mexican markets, I mean, here in Texas, maybe not everywhere else. Um sell them already cut and you know like cleaned and and cut but if you happen to only find whole we call them pencas like the whole nopal then what you do is you want to use a knife and kind of you can either do like a scrape you scrape off the the thorns or you can and there's different there's different techniques and people do it with a peeler but the important thing is So you need to take your knife and you just go right underneath like the thorn. And they're pretty, you know, spaced out. So it's really easy. It's not going to take you too long. You just want to take your knife and go underneath those thorns. Make sure there isn't any left. And then you rinse and you cut. Yeah. I was on your Instagram channel and I saw you say that there is a Mexican saying.
[41:08] Sin chile, no sabe. What exactly does that mean? Sin chile, no sabe. It means if it doesn't have chile, you're not going to get any flavor. And as Mexicans, you know, like if we were every single meal, we have salsa. Like salsa is not, it's as important as salt on the table. And so a lot of people, you know, there's no salsa. They're like, you know, like there's something missing. Like there's no flavor.
[41:35] I love, and for you listeners, I highly recommend you try and watch this on YouTube so you can actually see what we're talking about here.
Traditional Techniques and Ingredients
[41:46] And if not, we'll do hopefully a good job of describing it for you. But I want to go through a sampling of your recipes so that the listener can kind of get a good idea of some of the incredible recipes that you've created here in Comida Cacera. And let's start, if you're cool with it, let's start on page 27. And I'm going to show everybody a photo. This is, you call this Mexican green rice, arroz verde. And here it is, everybody. Let me show everybody, move this here.
[42:25] There she goes. And tell us about this dish. So this is what we call at home the green monster rice. Because I get my kids to eat green things.
[42:42] But it is a Mexican rice that is seasoned with a mixture of poblano peppers and cilantro and garlic. So you blend the cilantro, the garlic, the poblano peppers, and that's going to be kind of like the broth and what you cook your rice in. So it's a really like spicy, aromatic, garlicky rice. It's delicious. Yeah. And it's green. I mean, for people that can't see the smoke, it really, it's green. The page before you have Mexican red rice, you've got green rice. I just love how colorful this cuisine is. It's really wonderful. All right. I am going to, let's go to page 45 now, Dora. And what I'm looking at now is blistered serranos. And you say that at your parents' restaurant, they serve this with every steak. Is that right? Yes.
[43:41] So look at this. I would love to get this as kind of a, you know an appetizer and do you just eat all those peppers like that with the onions well it depends on how high your spice tolerance is but yeah it's usually served as um you know like a an accompaniment to your either your tacos or your steak or like you said like i mentioned in the book if you don't you know can't do spicy you could use shishito peppers and like you said And you could just have it as an appetizer. It's so like it has lime juice, a little bit of soy sauce, and the onions are a little bit caramelized. So it has so many flavors. Oh, yeah. It looks really, really nice.
[44:28] I just need to show this photo. This is on page 49. It's just blue corn tortillas. One of my favorite things. But you teach people how to make their own tortillas. Yes. And you also teach people how to make, like, multicolored tortillas with red and green and brown. Yeah, there's a, I don't know what page, let me tell you the page, but they're called. Here it is. It's page 57. This one. See? Rainbow tortillas. Yeah.
[45:04] Yeah. How fun. I love tortillas. Do you have a favorite tortilla, meaning flour or corn, which you like to use? Corn is my favorite. Yeah. Corn is my favorite. Why? I grew up eating just corn. I mean, I grew up in northern Mexico, so we also ate flour tortillas. But corn has always been my preference. I do have to say, though, that the corn tortillas that are commercially available in the U.S. just do not compare. They do not compare to like having a tortilla in Mexico. So if you were like, ah, you know, corn tortillas aren't my thing,
Cooking with Love
[45:43] I recommend you try making your own corn tortillas and that might change your mind. And when you make your corn tortillas, do you do it with or without oil? No oil. Corn tortillas don't need any oil. It's just the mazarina or the fresh masa if you have access to fresh masa. And it's just the mazarina, water, and maybe a little bit of salt. And that's it. Yeah. Nothing like homegrown corn tortillas. Let's go to page 60.
[46:22] We at PlantStrong, we're huge fans of green leafy vegetables. You have this wild green soup and we show it to everybody here. Look at that. And the other thing I really love about this book is you have great stories about each and every recipe. And here you talk about how there's over 350 different edible species of these wild green, edible wild greens. That's incredible.
[46:57] Yes. And this is what I was talking about earlier that, you know, in the Milpa system, this were the weeds and they're like, these aren't weeds, you know, these are edible greens. And now in Mexico, you know, the soil is so rich and the region's so different that there's so many different edible wild green species. And then this particular recipe is one that's from a cocinera tradicional from Oaxaca. How, do you like greens? I love greens. Yeah, I do. I love greens. I love greens and smoothies and tacos and salads. Like I love greens. Do you have a favorite green leafy vegetable? For salads, I love arugula. Arugula is my favorite, my favorite salad. If I'm going to make like a stew or taco, I do love Swiss chard. Swiss chard is really, because it doesn't take as long as kale, I feel, to cook. You can easily add it, and I feel it has more flavor than spinach. Right.
[47:57] Let's go to page 82. These are breakfasts, and you talk about how this particular dish, this spicy machaka tofu scramble is your mom's favorite breakfast. This looks so absolutely delicious to me, so a machaca or machacado is dried beef and it's very commonly eaten in northern mexico and so what i did is i made dried beef in air quotes with soy curls and so the recipe before this one is how to make the machaca with the soy curls and the tofu scramble, you cook, you know, you make a tofu scramble, you know, you press the tofu, cook the tofu, you add onion, garlic, and then you make like a roasted tomato salsa and you add the machaca. So it's very kind of like meaty, spicy, you know, very hearty, hearty breakfast that you could either have, like in the photo, it has refried beans, or you can make tacos out of it. If I wanted to eat that, that tofu scramble, what salsa would you recommend to go with that?
[49:20] So this tofu scramble already has a salsa. Yeah, so you cook the tofu scramble in the salsa. So it's called the salsa ranchera. And so that it's just you basically, you can either roast or you can even boil the tomatoes with the peppers. And then you just blend it with a little bit of garlic and onion. And that's what you're going to cook the tofu scramble in. So the salsa comes with it. Yeah and what i what i love too is that you say how many this how many servings this makes the total time and then you have like you said the variations so oil free you know if you want to have a eggy taste you know do this time saving tips really really wonderful all right let's go to page 88 and 89 this is the chelorio chelorio chelorio chelorio chelorio chelorio burritos and i love the fact that here in this recipe you use medium size um tortillas intentionally so that a lot of it kind of hangs out correct yes.
[50:43] So burritos in mexico come in all shapes and sizes you can get like the huge ones but there's also like the ones in the photo they're medium-sized tortillas and they're not even close they're just kind of like rolled you know flour tortilla tacos and these are the kind of burritos you would take for like lunch for school and and so those these are the kind of burritos that are here they're kind of like smaller they're easier to eat you don't have to fold them and roll them You know, and they're delicious. They look delicious. All these look delicious. I want to, what about, let's go to page 93, your mushroom chorizo. What kind of mushrooms do you use here? I just use some button mushrooms or cremini is my favorite. Cremini are the button mushrooms that are brown. But you can use any mushrooms. This rib is actually one of my most popular recipes and has been for years because meat eaters will eat this. If you put it in their meal that they're having, they're not even going to know that it's not meat. And what is the key? Is it the spices? What is it that makes it so umadi and meat?
[52:06] The secret to this recipe is that it's made in the traditional way that pork chorizo is made and that way to make you know regular pork chorizo you would make an adobo sauce so an adobo sauce is a blend of dried chiles that have been soaked with spices garlic onion you blend it you strain it and then you would add it to the protein and so i'm basically doing the same thing It's the same adobo that is used to make chorizo, but instead of adding it to meat, I'm adding it to a mixture of sautéed mushrooms, tofu, and walnuts for texture. And so it has meatiness, it has all of the flavor of chorizo, and it has a little bit of that texture. And so it really is like it fools people.
[52:52] Do you love cooking? I do. I do love cooking. Do you cook every day? Yes, I cook every day, a lot of times a day, because I have three kids. So, you know, there has to be breakfast, there's lunch for school or lunch at home, and dinner. So there's three meals a day here. Let's go. Is it mushroom carnitas? Let me see. I have that written down here. Well, I think you say that there's two ingredients, I think, in mushroom carnitas, the yuba and the porcini mushroom powder. Do you know where that is? That's page 114, mushroom carnitas. Yeah. There it is. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
[53:43] And um what is yuba for people that have no idea what yuba is so yuba is what we call tofu skin, and it's the product a byproduct of making tofu and it's kind of like the skin that rises to the top and so they it's you can find at asian markets either fresh or dehydrated and it's a very, good option for carnitas because you can put it in the air fryer you can pan fry it and it becomes crispy it becomes almost like a chicharron and so for this particular recipe mushroom carnitas i use oyster mushrooms to kind of mimic the meatiness of it and then yuba to give it a crispiness so it has both textures and both flavors and when it makes a really hearty like taco.
[54:38] Lovely. You have a whole chapter on moles. And I think I can't even tell you how much I love a good mole. And you say that there's 71 different types of moles. 71. How in the world did you ever figure that out. I did a lot of research. I did a lot of research. Yeah, there's a lot of different types of mole and they vary from region to region. In this chapter, the most complicated ones are the mole negra, which is a black mole and the mole poblano. But I do also include some that are easier to make that don't take five hours. And there's the mole poblano right there. Just looks I can taste it just through the page I really feel like I can do you.
[55:39] And look at this look at this mole poblano enchiladas look at how gorgeous that is, Who in the world, Dora, did all your photography? Me. Really? Yeah. That's incredible. Wow. Did you just like learn how to take photographs? No, I've been doing, because I have my website. So I've been taking my own photographs for years. Good for you. Wow.
[56:11] Any word on moles before we leave the mole section? Yes. If you've never made mole, I recommend you start with the red almond mole. It is pretty easy to make. It's ready in 35 minutes. So yeah, it's really easy to make and it's very good with veggies. It's very good with beans, chayote, with any roasted veggies, roasted cauliflower. So if you have, you know, a bunch of random veggies in your fridge, roast them, make your red almond mole and have them with tortillas and you will
The Power of Community
[56:48] be blown away because it's so easy to make. It's creamy. It's spicy. It's a little bit sweet. It's delicious.
[56:59] I love doing just frozen broccoli frozen cauliflower throwing it in the oven and kind of roasting it and i'm always looking for the right sauce to dip them in and that that red mole would be perfect, Let's go. Hang in there with me. Doing great. Let's go to your meatless meatballs on 178. These are meatless meatballs in a chipotle peanut sauce. Yes these are i think what would really represent mexican home cooking albondigas like meatballs in a creamy peanut chipotle sauce it would be like the kind of thing like your mom would make like for dinner during the week for lunch and these meatballs are made with a mixture of tofu and mushrooms. So no meat substitutes, no weird ingredients. They're very easy to make. And the sauce is the star though. The sauce, that peanut sauce is also really good on enchiladas.
[58:12] You've got a layered chickpea enchiladas on page 180, 182 is the photo, 181 is the recipe. And this reminds me, there's a kind of a Mexican restaurant here in Austin called Mr. Natural. I don't know if you've ever been to it. I have been. It's delicious. Yeah. And they do a really nice job. This reminds me of one of their dishes. And this is, like I said, this is the layered chickpea enchiladas. And I would imagine, Dora, if I was to just cut through this with a fork, could I kind of get little fork-sized pieces or do I need a knife as well? No, you could cut through it with a fork.
[58:58] Yeah. It looks so nice. Anything you'd like to say about that? This one is a vegan version of a traditional dish from Campeche, which is southern Mexico, called pan de cason. So the chickpeas are taking the place of fish. So they would make like fish, layered fish enchiladas. But what makes this one really stand out is that the sauce is a tomato habanero sauce with epazote. And so epazote is a Mexican herb. It's a very pungent Mexican herb. The indigenous people would add it to their beans. The lore is that it helps with the gassiness. And so you can get that at mexican markets or you can buy it online dried dried epazote but this tomato sauce is very very particular because of the habanero chili because of the epazote it's really flavors that maybe here on the border we're not used to we're more used to like chipotle would be like a good example but here you're bringing in epazote habanero and it's just so hearty you corn tortillas, refried beans, the chickpea layer, which is supposed to mimic the fish, and then topped with your habanero tomato sauce. It's really good.
[1:00:21] How important are tamales to traditional Mexican cuisine? How much time do you have?
[1:00:35] Tamales are a little bit of my specialty, but they have a really great history behind them. They were, since the very beginning, a ritual food. They were eaten as part of indigenous rituals, religious rituals, or even like they had like a sort of baptism, like a naming baptism, and they would eat tamales. And so with the arrival, with the conquest, the Spanish tried to erase the ritual part. But ironically, they are still eaten in Mexico as part of a ritual because they're eaten during Christmas time or Dia de Muertos. So they weren't really able to eradicate our ritual tamale eating. But they are very, very important, not only because they're part of our rituals, but because it's one of the oldest indigenous foods in Mexico.
[1:01:31] And so we have them every year. They're more of a winter, fall kind of food. So Dia de Muertos, Christmas, New Year's, that's what I would call tamale season. And it ends in February, which is, there's a religious holiday called El Día de la Candelaria. And that's traditionally also served, you serve tamales. So really from like October to February is tamales season. And I'm looking at the black bean zucchini tamales on page 217. It's an incredible photo. I'll just show everybody here.
[1:02:11] It's it's a wonderful tamale it's on a what kind of a leaf is that that's a banana leaf laying on a banana leaf with some zucchini and black beans kind of on top of it perfectly positioned it's just a gorgeous photo um, and And, you know, I think my thing with tamales is I feel like I can eat eight at a time. I love them so much. And they're just, they go down so easily. But this seems like it's a time-intensive thing.
[1:02:55] Process making tamales is that correct yes i it's not difficult it's not difficult at all and then i do include in the beginning of the chapter step-by-step photos and like a description of like what your masa should look like and how to spread them and how to wrap them and how to put them in the pot so we have all step-by-step instructions with photos so i but they do take time so i do recommend that you invite friends or in the beginning of the chapter i also have like make tamales in three days like the mole you know if you're going to make them by the by yourself you could make the masa the day before and then the next day the filling and the cooking or you could even do it in three days make the masa one day make the filling the other day and then the third day put it all together and then that way you know you don't have to spend a lot of hours in the kitchen.
[1:03:49] Is there a way to make tamales without oil, or is oil kind of a necessary ingredient with tamales? You know, this is my favorite part of tamales, that when I did all this research, indigenous tamales before the conquests didn't have any fat. The Spanish brought their pigs and their cows and their fat. So before they got there, tamales didn't have any fat at all. It would just be the masa. And, you know, just like we were talking about tortillas, it would just be the masa, water and salt. So for my oil-free tamales, though, I add unsweetened pumpkin puree to it. And so that way there's a little more moisture in the masa. And so they're more a little more dense than tamales made with oil but because the pumpkin puree is adding a little bit more moisture they do still come out super tender really good and you don't have to use oil.
[1:04:52] That's great. Thank you for that history there. And I had no idea that you can have dessert tamales. Like on page 223, you have this chocolate and pecan tamale. Yes. Sweet tamales are also one of the oldest recorded indigenous foods. I mean, not these chocolate ones, but just in general, sweet tamales.
[1:05:23] Um when you make tamales typically how many do you make at a time, i like to make well it depends on what i'm doing if i'm doing like a batch for me i make like 24 that's what the recipe makes 24 tamales but if it's like christmas time like you can see i'm sure you've seen videos online it's like christmas time and there's like whole families are like getting together to make like hundreds of tamales. So it depends on what you're doing, but like the recipes make 24 tamales. So I think it's pretty manageable and they freeze really well. So if you're like, what am I going to do with 24 tamales? You can freeze them and then just unfreeze them whenever, you know, you need them. Tamales are, I think the world's best portable food. So they're already come in a wrapper. So all you have to do is take it out, heat it up, and eat. And they come in that corn husk. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You have a dessert section.
[1:06:26] You have flans, you have a strawberry, mastachan, and I'm just going to show a couple here. So this on page 287, you have a chocoflan. I think all the listeners know I've got a weakness for chocolate.
[1:06:43] How yummy is this on a, you know, one to 10 yummy factor scale? This is a thousand on the yummy factor scale. So chocoflan is also sometimes called the impossible cake because it's chocolate cake on the bottom and flan on top.
[1:07:03] And so you bake it in the same pan. That's why it's almost impossible because you're like, how are you making the same flan cake? So it's a really, really traditional, like more modern Mexican cooking, home cooking your chocoflan. But you have like a rich chocolate cake on the bottom and like a creamy flan on the top. So, I mean, it's the best of both worlds. Yeah. On the very next page, you've got a tres leches cake. That's such a popular, you know, iconic Mexican dessert, tres leches. How pleased are you with how this turned out? You know this is one of the recipes that i've had to had to test a lot because i'm never happy with it i'm never happy with it because the egg when you make it what the you know meat version the egg really gives the cake the texture that holds the milk so i did have to do several different tests to be able to finally get something that i was happy with but this tastes just like Tres leches. I mean, if you grew up in Texas, if you grew up in Mexico, tres leches, that's the dessert. That is the dessert.
[1:08:20] On page 300, you have sweet corn ice cream. Do your kids like sweet corn ice cream? You know, they like it if I puree it really well. Because you can have it in Mexico, they serve it chunky. So you can get like chunks of corn, but the kids will like it if I really puree it. And so it's a smooth and they like the taste, you know, corn is so sweet. Corn is so sweet. So why not make it into an ice cream? It's delicious. Yeah. Uh, so you've, you have become a, a true influencer. Your Instagram channel has over, you know, 300,000 followers, Dora. That's like remarkable. Congratulations on that. Do you have any favorite stories from a reader or a follower after trying a recipe or starting to eat, you know, uh.
[1:09:19] Plant-based Mexican food? You know, I actually just met, I had a book event in LA and I met a person and she came up to me and she said, your pozole saved my life. And I'm like, you know, like, okay, cool.
[1:09:34] And then I'm like, okay, yeah. And then, but she didn't get to tell me why. And I was like, okay. And so later on, she came back and she said, I want to tell you how your pozole have saved my life. She said she had a health issue that was keeping her from eating. Like she couldn't keep anything down. She was really struggling. And the doctor suggested that she drop animal products. It's like drop all animal products. And let's see if we can get you back to normal. And so she decided to make my green pozole, which is in the book. And she found that she could eat it, that she didn't have any trouble when she was eating it. So she said for a whole month, all she ate was green pozole every day. She'd make it in batches, green pozole, green pozole, until she was able to recover and include more food in her diet. So I thought that was a really cool, a really cool story. It is. That's remarkable. Yeah. Well, One of the things I loved when I was doing my book tours was just hearing all the stories of people that had embraced the tenants in my books and how it had helped them. Or as you said, they, you know, save their life, their life or whatever. It's great.
Future Aspirations
[1:10:57] What's next for you, Dora? uh or you just are you right now basking in this three three years that it took you to come out with this little gem you know everybody keeps asking me and in the beginning in the beginning of the book tour i was like nothing is next nothing nothing is next but now um like last week i had the idea for another cookbook and i'm like no don't do it it's too soon.
[1:11:28] But no what I really want to focus on is on building community I think online over the years has gotten very toxic you know I do deal with a lot of negativity you wouldn't think so you know all I really talk about is food but so I do want to create a place where maybe we could all come together and share our recipes I'm thinking of doing almost like a cookbook club where I make a recipe from the book every month live. And then we can chat and we can talk about it and we can share. It happened with the recipe testers. We had a group chat where we would all share and they would help each other. Like, oh, I couldn't find this ingredient. And then someone would say, oh, try this store. Or I used this instead and it worked. And so we really kind of built a really nice community.
[1:12:19] And so I think I would want to replicate that away from social media to maybe kind of get away from that negativity and kind of focus more on what brings me joy and what brings other people joy, which is cooking and kind of bringing us all together. Yeah. Well, that's how you got here in the first place. Yeah. Do you do anything on YouTube? You know, I do have a YouTube, but I'm not very active on it because it takes so much. Well, I find it takes a lot of commitment, so much commitment. And like I mentioned before, I have three little babies. Well, they're not babies, but three kids that take up a lot of my time. But it is on my like, I should do YouTube. I should do it. Yeah, it has the potential to, I think, be a pretty powerful platform. Without a lot of the negativity maybe that you're experiencing in some of the other ones. I know my sister Jane and my mother Anne have a YouTube channel, and they try and do a recipe like once every week or every other week, and it's done very well for them. Yeah, yeah.
Closing Thoughts on Tradition and Health
[1:13:31] Well, Dora, it has been so fantastic to meet you, to hear about your passion towards Mexican traditional and modern cuisine. I mean, you know, what you've done here with Comida Casera is so impressive. And I just think it speaks to who you are as a person and your values and your commitment to creating delicious, traditional, healthy Mexican cuisine. So way to be. Thank you so much for having me, Rip. Absolutely. Can you give me a virtual Plant Strong fist bump on the way out? Yeah. PLANTSTRONG, Dora, boom. Have a great one. Thank you. What an absolute treat to be able to sit down with Dora and hear how she's keeping tradition alive while making it healthier for people and the planet. If your mouth is watering like mine, grab her latest cookbook, Comida Casera. You can find the link along with all of our show notes from today at plantstrongpodcast.com. Thanks, as always, for listening and sharing. And like I say every week, always, always keep it PLANTSTRONG.
[1:14:54] The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, and Ami Mackey. If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones. You can always leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
